#154 - Victor Pascucci III | Pioneering Venture Capital at the Forefront of Natural Gas Innovation

[00:00:00] This is the Lets Grab Coffee Podcast and I'm your host George Khalife.

[00:00:07] Vic, appreciate you finally being on the podcast even though I've known you for quite some

[00:00:11] time now.

[00:00:12] Thanks for having me.

[00:00:13] It's great to be here.

[00:00:16] We have to settle something even though again I feel like we're friends now and

[00:00:19] good friends in the ecosystem.

[00:00:20] Walk me through the last name pronunciation in the Italian sense.

[00:00:24] You know I want to get to this before we get going.

[00:00:27] The Italian sense is Pascoochi.

[00:00:30] That's what I wanted to say with like that dramatic flair in the background.

[00:00:35] You know Vic Pascoochi.

[00:00:36] There you go.

[00:00:38] Love it.

[00:00:39] Thanks for being here man.

[00:00:41] For a lot of folks in Chicago will know you.

[00:00:44] My audience though is global half in North America half in the Middle East.

[00:00:47] For folks who don't you have a very interesting story because you know you're a guy who

[00:00:52] comes from traditionally the legal background.

[00:00:55] So you got your JD.

[00:00:57] You worked for a law firm.

[00:00:58] You then pivoted into general counsel for a software company and somehow some way you

[00:01:04] know kind of the grittiness inside you get you into the VC space.

[00:01:09] So now you're a very well known venture capital investor in Chicago.

[00:01:14] You've been a VC in that sort of tech space.

[00:01:16] Now you're in the energy capital space particularly in ESG and hydrogen which we'll

[00:01:21] get into.

[00:01:23] What I really wanted to get going with you is how does how does someone start on the

[00:01:27] legal side and then pivot into VC.

[00:01:31] Yeah you know I think I think the real lesson is in that if you no matter what

[00:01:36] you want to do especially if it's getting to VC you can get into VC.

[00:01:41] It really doesn't matter what your background is where you come from what you do.

[00:01:46] The issue is it's never going to be this direct linear A to B and it's probably

[00:01:51] going to take a whole lot longer than you want to take because for me it did at least.

[00:01:55] Right. So a lot of people do make that legal to finance transition but I started out as

[00:02:01] a trial attorney so the furthest afield of true transactional work and I noticed when

[00:02:07] I was a lawyer going to court with their everyday fighting with people I started

[00:02:10] getting attuned to this technology industry where no one was angry and fighting but

[00:02:15] they were happy and building.

[00:02:16] I was like that sounds a lot better than doing what I'm doing.

[00:02:20] And the only way I knew to kind of get into the industry itself was to become a lawyer for

[00:02:26] technology companies and investors in those companies.

[00:02:28] And since no one was going to hire a trial attorney no law firm is going to hire a

[00:02:31] trial attorney to go do technology work because if you're making money for a firm

[00:02:36] one way they kind of want to keep you there.

[00:02:38] I said to start my own law firm representing technology companies and investors and just

[00:02:41] kind of self-taught my way from there.

[00:02:44] And then from there one of the guys that I was working all too hard and all too long to

[00:02:50] get his business for my law firm finally said no I won't hire your firm but I will

[00:02:55] make you my first general counsel.

[00:02:57] So that got me reeling to the belly of the beast of startups raising money

[00:03:02] managing cap tables a lot of raising money pitching investors and really got

[00:03:08] excited about the ability to work on the investment side and work not just with one

[00:03:14] company but many companies and just be around these brilliant people and help them

[00:03:17] achieve their dreams.

[00:03:19] And I had no idea how I was going to get into venture I had no idea how I was

[00:03:23] going to go from that side to the other.

[00:03:24] But I always knew I wanted to.

[00:03:26] And so through one crazy M&A deal after another I ended up actually in San

[00:03:32] Antonio Texas working for a Fortune 100 company as the lawyer for their CIO CTO

[00:03:37] CISO and head of business operations and would see these.

[00:03:42] It was as in financial services where I did most my early investing in fintech

[00:03:45] and financial services and I would see these large companies relying on these

[00:03:49] technology companies and startups for these big strategic initiatives.

[00:03:53] And in my mind I was like wow we need to invest in these companies right.

[00:03:57] They're relying on us we're relying on them there's no better way to align

[00:04:01] and capture upside than putting capital at risk with these companies.

[00:04:05] We need to do that.

[00:04:07] And at that time our companies would like shut up we're going to do that here

[00:04:10] we're talking like that you're fired stop it.

[00:04:13] But I was like well I'm the startup guy this big company I'm going to get

[00:04:16] fired eventually so we might as well make a difference along the way and have

[00:04:19] some fun and eventually just aggravated them into literally doing venture cap

[00:04:24] and corporate for it was then corporate venture capital.

[00:04:26] So started doing a deal here a deal there you know built that up to three

[00:04:30] hundred and thirty million dollar fund bunch of IPOs came out of it.

[00:04:34] Bunch of billion dollar companies came out of that they're still holding their

[00:04:37] valuations and from there realized I wanted to kind of go from the corporate

[00:04:41] venture world to a more traditional role and that's what got me on what I'm

[00:04:45] on now.

[00:04:45] Now understanding that was about a 15 year time period.

[00:04:50] This is not two months.

[00:04:51] Yeah it's not linear sequential it didn't happen as quickly as anybody

[00:04:55] wanted and you just got to keep grinding and grinding and grinding in

[00:05:00] that word probably gets overused now.

[00:05:02] You just have to keep moving forward be disciplined do the best you can with

[00:05:06] the opportunities that are right there in front of you understanding there's

[00:05:09] something else out there but you've got to make the best of what you got

[00:05:11] right in front of you there.

[00:05:13] Yeah a close mentor of mine actually who's our CEO funny enough TMX group

[00:05:18] said the same thing he's like and I remember I was still kind of a young

[00:05:22] associate and he he drove that into me because it resonated a lot.

[00:05:26] Most people are always worried about the next step the next level the next

[00:05:29] promotion but he's like you lose sight of what you're supposed to be executing

[00:05:32] on now let alone what you're executing on now is what's going to open doors

[00:05:37] maybe not at the current company.

[00:05:38] Maybe it's a completely different vertical different industry but if you

[00:05:42] don't do what you're doing now then people around you are going to look

[00:05:45] and say well that person is great as Vic is as great as Jordan but not

[00:05:48] not executing on their current mandate.

[00:05:50] So what conviction do I have that they can do that in the next role.

[00:05:53] Yeah you're never going to get ahead being ungrateful for the

[00:05:57] opportunities you have now and you're never going to get ahead ahead doing

[00:06:01] anything other than executing at the highest levels as to what you've got

[00:06:04] right here now.

[00:06:06] How do you know though one one challenge I've had in my career is

[00:06:10] knowing when to keep pushing knowing when to kind of pivot.

[00:06:14] When did you know like when were those pivotal moments in your career

[00:06:17] whether you go from legal to general counsel to your first VC game.

[00:06:21] When was that point where you're like you know what now is the time

[00:06:24] now I'm ready.

[00:06:25] I've been kind of heads down pounding the pavement.

[00:06:28] Yeah you know some of them were it was just an opportunity where it felt

[00:06:34] right and some of them it was a little bit of a forced realization.

[00:06:38] Right.

[00:06:38] And you know when I went from in the legal field from law from law you

[00:06:46] know from from trial work to transactional work you know my law

[00:06:49] firm I was working for they're just up front with me like that we make

[00:06:52] too much money with you doing what you're doing now and support you

[00:06:56] doing this.

[00:06:56] So it's like I was still in my 20s I was like OK I guess I have to go

[00:07:00] do this on my own right when I was agitating or initiating you know

[00:07:06] doing venture capital investments in a large force 100 company I just

[00:07:11] knew was the right thing to do.

[00:07:12] Like I knew it was the right thing to do for the company I was

[00:07:15] working with even if they didn't realize it and for the startups

[00:07:19] and I knew it was going to make everyone's life better and our

[00:07:22] customers lives better for the company I was working with.

[00:07:24] And it's kind of hard because you know especially larger companies

[00:07:27] and it's the same for smaller companies.

[00:07:29] You push too hard and you alienate people right.

[00:07:33] You push in the right fashion so people understand you're doing it

[00:07:36] for a bigger purpose.

[00:07:37] You're doing it for the right reasons you're not doing it for

[00:07:39] yourself like I truly believe and to this day in my heart the

[00:07:42] deals I did back then were the best things for that company and

[00:07:46] their customers or members.

[00:07:47] Right.

[00:07:48] And so kind of going from that perspective it's OK to push and

[00:07:52] then sometimes though you've just got to be at the point going

[00:07:55] it's not going to get any better.

[00:07:56] Right.

[00:07:56] This is it.

[00:07:58] I need to make that big jump in that big leaf like even when

[00:08:00] I was doing corporate venture I knew I was only going to go so

[00:08:03] far as a venture capitalist in that corporate paradigm.

[00:08:06] Right.

[00:08:07] I knew there was only so much of an impact I was going to be

[00:08:09] able to have in that role.

[00:08:12] So it just came to a point where I was like it's time.

[00:08:15] I need to leave now before I start to get too comfortable or

[00:08:19] my performance starts to not develop and you got to call it.

[00:08:26] And for someone who you know kind of moved into the venture

[00:08:30] space for the first time it's not like you know you grew

[00:08:32] through the ranks naturally in your career and venture and I

[00:08:34] think that's one of the most inspiring pieces for me and

[00:08:38] your story is that you make it visible to other people that

[00:08:42] hey you can crack into this vertical that to a lot of

[00:08:44] people seems like a shelter industry.

[00:08:47] You know you're either growing through the ranks as an early

[00:08:49] analyst associate or you have money or it's kind of very

[00:08:53] difficult to get into it right.

[00:08:54] It's a bit of a club in the nonsense.

[00:08:57] Sure.

[00:08:58] What was the steepest learning curve for you

[00:09:01] getting into venture.

[00:09:03] I think for me the steepest curve was really understanding

[00:09:07] some of those kind of cultural norms that enable you to be

[00:09:13] the most effective at the role.

[00:09:16] So you know what are examples of those like if you come from a

[00:09:20] legal background let alone a litigator trial background it's

[00:09:23] always win win win as forcefully as you can as quick

[00:09:26] as you can and just like win every point like it doesn't

[00:09:31] matter just keep winning when you're in venture

[00:09:33] understanding like you're going to be married to these

[00:09:35] people whether you're there your co-investors or your

[00:09:38] entrepreneurs or or for at least 10 years minimal right.

[00:09:42] If you're investing at the early stage.

[00:09:43] So it's really about developing the relationship not scoring

[00:09:47] points right.

[00:09:48] It's about where you think you could be in five and 10

[00:09:51] years with this group not in the next five minutes over a

[00:09:54] negotiation point that really doesn't matter right or trying

[00:09:57] to prove that you're right about things because at the

[00:10:00] end of the day you're foolish in this business to

[00:10:02] believe you're going to be right because no one knows

[00:10:04] the actual answers right.

[00:10:05] You have your experience you have your decision models you

[00:10:09] weigh certain factors and you just provide that to

[00:10:11] people let them make their own decisions right.

[00:10:13] It's not about like forcing winning and it took me time

[00:10:17] to sit in those boardrooms with some of like the best

[00:10:20] and brightest venture capitalists I've ever met even

[00:10:22] to this day seeing how they operate seeing when they

[00:10:26] know when to push versus pull saying no where they

[00:10:29] need to like set up a little higher versus sit back

[00:10:32] a little and that's something I'm still learning today.

[00:10:34] Let's be clear to really see how people get are

[00:10:37] effective in those norms of the different board rooms

[00:10:40] and in sourcing deals and working through relationships.

[00:10:44] That was that was something that you know to this day I

[00:10:47] got to keep working on.

[00:10:50] Yeah some of those nuances I guess you really only can

[00:10:53] also develop over time because it's not something you

[00:10:55] can just read in an article or talk.

[00:10:57] The technical stuff you could read right.

[00:10:59] You can read you can read venture deals a thousand

[00:11:03] times and understand like term sheets and all the

[00:11:06] things and that's part of it.

[00:11:07] You got to do that work.

[00:11:08] You got to come up with that baseline understanding

[00:11:10] right.

[00:11:10] And but I think also then coming in from the outside

[00:11:13] this business which you learn is like the hype

[00:11:16] and verbally that's in a lot of these articles

[00:11:18] versus the reality of what happens and what's

[00:11:20] really going on.

[00:11:21] And you know so then you kind of learn that over

[00:11:24] time.

[00:11:25] And then I also think kind of the one of the

[00:11:29] you know larger learnings of it was just

[00:11:32] understanding when you come from the outside

[00:11:34] coming in you think this whole business about

[00:11:36] doing deals doing deals doing deals do it do

[00:11:38] like finding entrepreneurs give me the money.

[00:11:41] That's part of it right.

[00:11:43] But the real job is to raise money from other

[00:11:47] people.

[00:11:47] So you have the money to invest.

[00:11:49] It's kind of table stakes that you're going

[00:11:51] to do good deals and work with great

[00:11:53] entrepreneurs.

[00:11:54] But then the other hard part is actually

[00:11:56] getting money back to the people that gave it

[00:11:58] to you right.

[00:11:59] So the work only just starts when you do the

[00:12:02] deal right on that element understanding that

[00:12:05] the work even to get up to that point the

[00:12:07] years and years of of developing your skill

[00:12:10] set and your reputation your track record so

[00:12:13] that you can raise money from people in the

[00:12:15] first place.

[00:12:17] That's what's really hard.

[00:12:18] And so really coming from the outside

[00:12:20] looking in like I always thought the

[00:12:21] business was just doing the deal and then

[00:12:23] like you know the returns happen.

[00:12:25] Yes you coach you mentor whatever is

[00:12:26] another not understanding that the real

[00:12:28] business is raising the capital and the

[00:12:31] real real business is returning the cap

[00:12:33] right.

[00:12:34] Right.

[00:12:34] And all the managing in between because they

[00:12:36] even return the capital you have to be

[00:12:37] supportive to these poor Co's and there's so

[00:12:39] much in there that I guess people don't

[00:12:41] realize.

[00:12:42] Again it's kind of like the suits files

[00:12:43] you are the greatest enemy.

[00:12:45] You know you see the glamour that the

[00:12:46] glitz and appeal of something right.

[00:12:50] It's kind of like everyone want to be a

[00:12:51] law lawyer back in the day because the

[00:12:52] L.A. law was like pop.

[00:12:54] I was going to say how how many lawyers

[00:12:56] are you know is that show responsible for

[00:12:58] creating who should not be in that

[00:13:00] position.

[00:13:01] So you go from corporate VC which is a

[00:13:03] very interesting start especially in the

[00:13:05] fintech insured insured tech space.

[00:13:07] But also I would argue and you know better

[00:13:09] than I do I've never worked at a corporate

[00:13:11] VC but I imagine

[00:13:14] maybe the rigidness is a bit more than

[00:13:15] actually joining a

[00:13:17] your common venture venture firm.

[00:13:21] You pivot from that to I think it was

[00:13:22] light bank right.

[00:13:24] Pretty closely after that.

[00:13:26] And that was arguably your first real

[00:13:29] kind of venture in the

[00:13:32] seed and series a space

[00:13:34] in Chicago.

[00:13:35] You know you join as a managing partner

[00:13:37] and you're really leading the investment

[00:13:38] team there.

[00:13:39] You guys are responsible for some of the

[00:13:42] kind of most notable deals I would say

[00:13:44] in the ecosystem from companies like

[00:13:46] clear cover snapsheets sprout social.

[00:13:49] There's a bunch of these really really

[00:13:50] cool companies.

[00:13:52] What was that three and a half year

[00:13:53] period like at light bank you know

[00:13:55] especially as the Chicago ecosystem is

[00:13:58] catching fire it's growing rapidly.

[00:14:00] There's a lot of excitement right to be

[00:14:01] a Nazi.

[00:14:02] You know it was you know I left Chicago

[00:14:04] it was like 2000

[00:14:08] think was it 2004.

[00:14:13] No 2005.

[00:14:14] I have to go back to the year my son

[00:14:16] was born. Yeah so that 2005

[00:14:18] time frame.

[00:14:20] And you know it's super interesting

[00:14:22] to see the technology ecosystem I

[00:14:24] left then versus the one I came back

[00:14:26] to right.

[00:14:27] The one I came back to that had things

[00:14:28] like M hub at 1870

[00:14:30] bond and and several

[00:14:32] several early stage venture capital

[00:14:34] funds here in town like none of that

[00:14:36] was here when I left.

[00:14:37] So it's great to kind of see

[00:14:40] that maturity of the community is

[00:14:42] great to see them.

[00:14:43] It come up you know we had more

[00:14:45] established angel groups then too like

[00:14:46] there was none of these angel

[00:14:48] networks or angel groups really going

[00:14:49] on back then either.

[00:14:50] So you know to see that robustness

[00:14:53] there was really exciting and then

[00:14:54] like you know we had some great winds

[00:14:56] coming out of this town by then as

[00:14:58] well which were you know kind of

[00:15:00] plant the flag type of thing.

[00:15:01] So it was really

[00:15:03] exciting to come back and see

[00:15:05] just the healthiness

[00:15:07] and the growth that was in the

[00:15:09] technology and the venture community

[00:15:10] here in town.

[00:15:13] Yeah the I moved in

[00:15:16] late 2019 so what you're describing

[00:15:18] is really what I came into

[00:15:20] but for someone who was here in the

[00:15:21] early 2000s I mean Chicago must have

[00:15:23] looked very different from the

[00:15:24] startup lens.

[00:15:25] Yeah I mean even so I was doing

[00:15:27] startups here in Chicago in

[00:15:29] 1990 well as a lawyer

[00:15:32] 98 through 2000

[00:15:35] give or take

[00:15:37] and then doing startups 2002

[00:15:41] till I left in 2004

[00:15:43] and you have to understand there

[00:15:44] was maybe three venture

[00:15:46] firms here in town

[00:15:49] like maybe three

[00:15:51] right.

[00:15:52] And one was doing life science

[00:15:53] and one was kind of generalist

[00:15:55] and one was like a glorified

[00:15:56] firm like there was it.

[00:15:58] There was no no there was nothing

[00:15:59] right.

[00:16:00] Nobody like the at

[00:16:02] that point the coastal firms were

[00:16:04] even more more focused

[00:16:06] on themselves than they are now

[00:16:07] like they would never think

[00:16:09] about getting on a plane back then

[00:16:10] and coming here right.

[00:16:11] This was at the high times everything

[00:16:13] was great.

[00:16:13] Then the crash everything went to hell

[00:16:15] they definitely weren't leaving their

[00:16:16] their their foxholes there.

[00:16:18] And so like you

[00:16:20] would never see like a Bane

[00:16:22] coming to town and doing deals or

[00:16:24] Excel

[00:16:25] or Sequoia

[00:16:26] or any of these other firms that

[00:16:27] are here now and have portfolio

[00:16:29] companies are now so

[00:16:30] it was it's just completely

[00:16:32] nine day like you know all of

[00:16:33] like the tech corridors about a

[00:16:35] block and a half on Kinsey

[00:16:37] Street.

[00:16:37] That was about it.

[00:16:38] Like there was no West Loop.

[00:16:39] There was no Fulton market.

[00:16:41] There was none of these like

[00:16:42] things here.

[00:16:43] You never a million years without

[00:16:44] I see Google with this many

[00:16:45] people here are those types of

[00:16:46] things.

[00:16:47] So it's great to come back and

[00:16:48] see all this.

[00:16:50] What were some of the most

[00:16:51] notable patterns you recognize

[00:16:53] with your experience investing

[00:16:55] in some of the best names

[00:16:57] that Chicago had to offer.

[00:16:58] Whether it was from

[00:17:00] what the companies were doing or

[00:17:02] what the founders were like.

[00:17:03] I'm sure you've seen probably

[00:17:05] written down some some patterns

[00:17:06] right like what are the Michael

[00:17:07] Jordans in your world look

[00:17:09] like.

[00:17:10] What do they have in common?

[00:17:12] I think the ones that

[00:17:15] the great ones

[00:17:17] right and the CEOs that you

[00:17:18] mentioned like the

[00:17:20] yeah like the

[00:17:22] the gums.

[00:17:23] Yeah like those great ones like

[00:17:25] they all whether it's Justin

[00:17:26] Howard or Kyle like

[00:17:28] they all had this awesome

[00:17:30] incredible balance of what I

[00:17:32] call like Midwest

[00:17:34] pragmatism

[00:17:36] caring about their people

[00:17:38] but yet we're thinking 20

[00:17:40] light years ahead of everybody

[00:17:41] in Blazing Trail like they

[00:17:43] knew how to be these

[00:17:44] visionary leaders but yet

[00:17:46] everybody could relate to them

[00:17:48] and love being on their team

[00:17:49] right like that

[00:17:51] whether it's the sprout team

[00:17:52] and the clear cover team

[00:17:53] or even the staff team like

[00:17:55] people loved being part

[00:17:57] of those teams because of those

[00:17:58] leaders.

[00:17:59] They had this healthy sense of

[00:18:01] self-authenticity.

[00:18:02] They were great folks

[00:18:05] but yet you could see them

[00:18:07] totally blazing trail and tearing

[00:18:08] things up right.

[00:18:09] They weren't like the

[00:18:10] mannock egotistical

[00:18:13] quintessential Wexcoast

[00:18:15] CEO type of

[00:18:17] folks like they were just

[00:18:18] they know they're going into

[00:18:19] huge industries.

[00:18:20] They knew they were going to have

[00:18:21] to work with and around large

[00:18:23] incumbents but they knew they

[00:18:25] were going to conquer it all and

[00:18:26] make a difference.

[00:18:27] And it's kind of this weird

[00:18:29] dichotomy if not just bipolar

[00:18:31] that you can be like a good

[00:18:33] kind of Midwestern

[00:18:36] raised solid person

[00:18:38] and yet be able to kind of

[00:18:39] operate at that next level of

[00:18:40] a visionary.

[00:18:41] So that's what I see

[00:18:43] in kind of the great CEOs

[00:18:44] and I see in the great CEOs

[00:18:45] we've backed here at Energy

[00:18:46] Capital Ventures right.

[00:18:49] That's kind of the consistent

[00:18:51] same theme I see

[00:18:53] on folks and the ones that

[00:18:54] really kind of blazed a trail

[00:18:56] and like ended up being

[00:18:57] huge fund returners

[00:18:59] for the folks I've worked with.

[00:19:00] What was that decision to

[00:19:02] speaking of Energy Capital

[00:19:04] Ventures which I want to get

[00:19:04] into.

[00:19:05] How do you go from software

[00:19:07] and tech before that fintech

[00:19:09] insurance act.

[00:19:10] Again you've had so many

[00:19:11] interesting pivots in your

[00:19:12] career to then recognizing that

[00:19:14] there's this massive imperative

[00:19:16] around ESG, green

[00:19:19] hydrogen.

[00:19:20] There's kind of a shift in how

[00:19:21] the industry is moving towards.

[00:19:23] When was that decision

[00:19:25] for you to say you know what

[00:19:26] I want to start a venture fund

[00:19:27] around this.

[00:19:28] Yeah so like

[00:19:30] it's interesting because like

[00:19:32] if even myself if you look

[00:19:33] at it on paper like this makes

[00:19:35] no freaking sense whatsoever.

[00:19:37] But until I started

[00:19:39] explaining like what really

[00:19:40] drew me into fintech and

[00:19:41] insure tech.

[00:19:42] Now granted I was in that

[00:19:43] industry so I knew her

[00:19:44] perspective on it.

[00:19:45] But when I did things like

[00:19:47] Coinbase and MX and

[00:19:49] Personal Capital and even

[00:19:50] Truecard,

[00:19:51] Snap Sheet,

[00:19:53] Clearcover these to me

[00:19:54] insure tech and fintech

[00:19:57] were solving a fundamental

[00:19:59] societal problem that people

[00:20:01] were either underbanked,

[00:20:04] overbanked,

[00:20:06] or unbanked.

[00:20:08] You were either overinsured,

[00:20:10] underinsured,

[00:20:11] or uninsured because the

[00:20:12] traditional incumbents only

[00:20:14] made money by selling a

[00:20:15] certain product certain way

[00:20:17] to certain people.

[00:20:18] And that either overdid it for

[00:20:20] you or under did for you.

[00:20:21] And I knew the only way we

[00:20:23] were going to and to me

[00:20:24] financial security it is

[00:20:27] the fabric of every

[00:20:29] community and families right.

[00:20:30] If they don't have financial

[00:20:31] security everything kind of

[00:20:32] falls apart from there.

[00:20:34] And so I knew the

[00:20:35] financial products of tomorrow

[00:20:37] need to be different than

[00:20:37] they work today if society

[00:20:39] was going to get ahead.

[00:20:40] And so that's what really got

[00:20:41] me into fintech and insure

[00:20:42] tech and really made me a

[00:20:43] champion on those things.

[00:20:45] So when I done that for I

[00:20:47] don't know 10 plus years I

[00:20:48] got to work with a lot of

[00:20:49] those great names and tons

[00:20:50] of other great names that

[00:20:51] I don't have time to mention.

[00:20:54] I was like you know

[00:20:57] I thought it was just going

[00:20:57] to go back to financial

[00:20:59] services again.

[00:20:59] I'm like I know this

[00:21:01] stuff I've lived and

[00:21:02] breathed it like I'm super

[00:21:04] comfortable here.

[00:21:05] I like what I mean.

[00:21:06] You see the innovation side

[00:21:07] of it as well.

[00:21:08] And you know I sat down

[00:21:10] with when I decided to

[00:21:12] move on I sat down with a

[00:21:13] good buddy of mine Rick

[00:21:14] Vitton partner with me

[00:21:16] here at ECV.

[00:21:17] And I'm like hey Rick

[00:21:19] you know I'm thinking about

[00:21:20] doing something different

[00:21:21] you know we've done a

[00:21:22] bunch of deals together

[00:21:22] should we partner up on

[00:21:23] things.

[00:21:24] And he's like we're

[00:21:25] 100% going to partner

[00:21:27] up I've been waiting for

[00:21:27] you to come off the bench.

[00:21:29] This is awesome let's go.

[00:21:30] I'm like great.

[00:21:31] He's like but we're not

[00:21:32] going to do it in fintech.

[00:21:33] I'm like what are you

[00:21:34] talking about?

[00:21:35] He goes I need you to

[00:21:36] look at the energy space.

[00:21:38] I was like Rick never

[00:21:40] even came up and not

[00:21:42] even on my radar.

[00:21:43] He's like spend some time

[00:21:44] let me because what I

[00:21:46] didn't know is Rick also

[00:21:47] has an investment banking

[00:21:48] background in the energy

[00:21:49] space.

[00:21:50] He's like let me

[00:21:50] introduce you to some

[00:21:51] of these energy companies

[00:21:53] read some of these

[00:21:53] analyst reports and can

[00:21:54] tell what you think and

[00:21:55] let's catch up next week

[00:21:57] when you're in New York.

[00:21:57] So do all the work meet

[00:21:58] at the CEOs CEOs are a

[00:22:00] lot of companies that are

[00:22:01] LPs in my fund right

[00:22:02] now.

[00:22:03] In what I saw was at

[00:22:05] the macro level an

[00:22:06] aging infrastructure things

[00:22:08] they were battling right

[00:22:09] aging infrastructures

[00:22:11] regulatory burdens people

[00:22:13] questioning their business

[00:22:14] model new technologies they

[00:22:16] didn't know if they were

[00:22:17] going to enable or

[00:22:18] disrupt them a super

[00:22:20] risk averse conservative

[00:22:21] environment customer

[00:22:23] satisfaction issues and

[00:22:25] reality is that was

[00:22:26] financial services 20

[00:22:27] years ago.

[00:22:28] Some would say that's

[00:22:28] financial services right

[00:22:29] now.

[00:22:30] So I was like OK get it

[00:22:33] like the whole macro

[00:22:34] makes sense.

[00:22:34] I was you know just

[00:22:35] jokingly say it's kind

[00:22:37] of the same complaints all

[00:22:38] these other CEOs had in

[00:22:39] financial services.

[00:22:40] Their their accents have

[00:22:41] just changed now where

[00:22:42] I'm here.

[00:22:43] You know and so

[00:22:45] started looking at that

[00:22:45] and then started looking

[00:22:47] at kind of the societal

[00:22:48] impacts that are there

[00:22:49] and similar to financial

[00:22:51] services not being able

[00:22:53] to serve the communities

[00:22:55] of today little tomorrow

[00:22:56] if you look at energy

[00:22:58] energy security and

[00:23:01] energy of quality like

[00:23:02] clean safe reliable

[00:23:04] cost effective energy is

[00:23:05] fundamental everything.

[00:23:06] It's even more fundamental

[00:23:07] than financial security

[00:23:08] because if you don't have

[00:23:09] energy you don't have

[00:23:10] anything right.

[00:23:12] And there's the companies

[00:23:14] especially those we work

[00:23:15] with the natural gas

[00:23:16] industry which are trying

[00:23:17] to understand the

[00:23:18] technologies tomorrow.

[00:23:19] They're trying to

[00:23:19] understand how should

[00:23:21] their businesses adapt.

[00:23:22] What are the right

[00:23:23] technologies for them to

[00:23:24] bet on bring into their

[00:23:25] businesses and provide

[00:23:26] to their customers.

[00:23:27] And you know the natural

[00:23:28] gas industries do things

[00:23:29] fantastic like that.

[00:23:31] There's some things they

[00:23:32] do fantastic a lot of

[00:23:33] things right when it

[00:23:34] comes to serving their

[00:23:35] customers doing it

[00:23:36] safely reliably cost

[00:23:37] effectively communicate

[00:23:39] with technology companies

[00:23:40] understanding the next

[00:23:42] generation of RNG hydrogen

[00:23:44] and the rest biofuels

[00:23:47] digital transformation

[00:23:49] methane emissions

[00:23:49] management kind of not

[00:23:51] their strongest suit

[00:23:52] right because they have

[00:23:53] different jobs to do

[00:23:54] in their day.

[00:23:55] So I was like wait a

[00:23:56] second if I can come

[00:23:58] here and have an

[00:24:00] impact on that

[00:24:01] and be part of the

[00:24:02] solution for the

[00:24:04] industry of tomorrow

[00:24:06] that's even more exciting

[00:24:07] than when I first

[00:24:09] started financial

[00:24:09] services.

[00:24:10] So you know I kind of

[00:24:12] just spent the time

[00:24:14] like every like it

[00:24:15] beginning of everything

[00:24:16] studying studying studying

[00:24:17] studying studying right

[00:24:18] you know talking to

[00:24:20] people as I could

[00:24:21] reading everything I

[00:24:22] could and I'm still

[00:24:22] doing that and then

[00:24:23] came together with my

[00:24:25] partners here and it's

[00:24:26] great because my

[00:24:26] partners Rick Fitton

[00:24:28] Jeff Yingling Ray O'Connor

[00:24:30] they're all 30 plus

[00:24:32] year investment bankers

[00:24:33] in the energy space.

[00:24:35] So they know this space

[00:24:36] really well they know

[00:24:37] space they know the

[00:24:37] people and these people

[00:24:39] have their trust in

[00:24:39] them what they were

[00:24:40] looking for some

[00:24:41] they're looking for a

[00:24:42] partner there's

[00:24:43] experience in venture

[00:24:43] capital that also

[00:24:45] understood how to

[00:24:46] talk to large

[00:24:46] corporations and

[00:24:48] understand large

[00:24:49] corporations.

[00:24:49] So it was kind of

[00:24:51] like Rick's like

[00:24:52] yeah I've been on

[00:24:53] three or four boards

[00:24:54] with Vic I've known

[00:24:55] the guy 10 years

[00:24:56] like he's what we

[00:24:57] need and guess what

[00:24:58] he's not doing

[00:24:58] anything right now.

[00:24:59] So so you know

[00:25:02] after 18 months

[00:25:04] of fundraising through

[00:25:05] covid a couple

[00:25:08] bunches of long rest

[00:25:08] we raised our first

[00:25:09] fund and we are

[00:25:10] up now as the only

[00:25:12] early stage venture

[00:25:12] capital fund that's

[00:25:14] solely dedicated to

[00:25:15] the sustainability

[00:25:16] resilience and digital

[00:25:17] transformation of

[00:25:18] the natural gas

[00:25:19] industry.

[00:25:20] That's phenomenal.

[00:25:21] And you were telling

[00:25:21] me that first fund

[00:25:22] was 61 million

[00:25:23] in aggregate.

[00:25:25] The it makes a ton

[00:25:26] of sense by the way

[00:25:27] especially the value

[00:25:28] that you bring.

[00:25:29] That's how I thought

[00:25:29] about it because who

[00:25:30] you're raising from

[00:25:31] kind of mimics the

[00:25:32] corporate venture model.

[00:25:34] I'm assuming these

[00:25:34] massive oil and gas

[00:25:35] companies to your point

[00:25:36] aren't as user

[00:25:38] friendly with the

[00:25:39] technology side

[00:25:40] and they probably

[00:25:41] don't want to deploy

[00:25:42] anything internally.

[00:25:43] Usually corporates

[00:25:44] are not as good

[00:25:44] at of doing that

[00:25:46] as as let's say

[00:25:48] indirectly investing

[00:25:49] in a different

[00:25:50] startup.

[00:25:51] That sole focus

[00:25:52] is that without

[00:25:53] having the politics

[00:25:54] and kind of the

[00:25:55] corporate hierarchy

[00:25:56] overhead.

[00:25:57] So I think that

[00:25:58] that makes a ton of sense.

[00:25:59] What I wanted to

[00:26:00] ask you is in

[00:26:01] those 18 months

[00:26:01] what was that?

[00:26:03] What was the most

[00:26:04] difficult feedback

[00:26:05] that you received

[00:26:06] when you were trying to

[00:26:06] fundraise for this

[00:26:07] specific vertical?

[00:26:11] Well, a lot of

[00:26:12] difficult feedback.

[00:26:12] So I think

[00:26:13] you know the

[00:26:14] you have to understand

[00:26:15] to the time we did it

[00:26:16] like we started

[00:26:17] fundraising.

[00:26:18] We were on our first

[00:26:19] road show in March

[00:26:22] of

[00:26:23] 2020.

[00:26:25] Right.

[00:26:25] So like

[00:26:26] we're literally

[00:26:27] on a plane

[00:26:28] and the COVID lockdowns

[00:26:29] started happening.

[00:26:31] We're landing in

[00:26:32] Phoenix and people

[00:26:33] like you can't

[00:26:33] come to the building.

[00:26:34] I'm like what do you

[00:26:34] mean we can't

[00:26:35] cover the building?

[00:26:36] They're like we've

[00:26:36] locked everything down.

[00:26:37] And so, you know,

[00:26:40] to start a fundraising

[00:26:41] at that standpoint,

[00:26:42] not optimal.

[00:26:43] Right.

[00:26:44] But I think

[00:26:45] you know the most

[00:26:48] it's no different than

[00:26:49] entrepreneurs that are

[00:26:50] out there fundraising

[00:26:51] that you know

[00:26:51] I had to say no to

[00:26:53] or have to say no to

[00:26:54] is you know we met

[00:26:55] with a lot of these

[00:26:56] companies and they're like

[00:26:57] Vic, Ray, Jeff,

[00:27:01] Rick, like

[00:27:03] you're exactly what we need.

[00:27:05] Like we love

[00:27:06] what you're doing.

[00:27:06] Like the industry needs this.

[00:27:09] But they're like

[00:27:09] we're just not comfortable

[00:27:10] doing venture capital.

[00:27:12] Like we're just not ready yet.

[00:27:14] So can we see how

[00:27:16] this works out

[00:27:16] and look at it

[00:27:17] at your next fund?

[00:27:18] And at this point

[00:27:20] you don't have a job.

[00:27:21] We've been fundraising

[00:27:22] for a year.

[00:27:23] I'm like

[00:27:25] I need to check now.

[00:27:26] You know.

[00:27:27] It's no different than

[00:27:27] like a seed state

[00:27:28] entrepreneur that like

[00:27:29] you know they're like

[00:27:30] oh come back at series A.

[00:27:31] No.

[00:27:32] Like if there's no seed

[00:27:33] there's no series A.

[00:27:34] So I think the

[00:27:35] difficult feedback was

[00:27:36] meeting these great folks,

[00:27:38] making connections with them,

[00:27:40] having them come to appreciate

[00:27:41] who we were as a team

[00:27:42] and what we wanted to accomplish

[00:27:43] in the unique model we had.

[00:27:45] And yet they still said no.

[00:27:47] Right?

[00:27:47] They're like

[00:27:48] yeah your track record is great.

[00:27:50] We've already diluted since that

[00:27:51] and like you guys are

[00:27:52] the right people

[00:27:53] doing this for the right reason.

[00:27:54] We're just not ready.

[00:27:56] So you know that was

[00:27:58] difficult because I think

[00:27:59] what we offer to them

[00:28:00] as a quote unquote product

[00:28:01] was kind of the best

[00:28:02] of both worlds.

[00:28:03] Right?

[00:28:03] It's that traditional

[00:28:05] fund structure,

[00:28:06] GP and LP,

[00:28:07] where we as a management team

[00:28:09] have full and sole

[00:28:10] authority around investments.

[00:28:12] But we provide the strategic

[00:28:13] value back on our

[00:28:15] engagement to them as

[00:28:16] corporates as if they had

[00:28:17] their own corporate

[00:28:18] venture group.

[00:28:19] Now the reality is some of them

[00:28:20] had their own corporate

[00:28:20] venture group,

[00:28:21] but those corporate

[00:28:22] venture groups realize

[00:28:23] they get to do things with us

[00:28:24] that they couldn't

[00:28:25] necessarily do on their own.

[00:28:26] And that one is better or worse.

[00:28:27] It's just different.

[00:28:28] And in this case,

[00:28:29] different adds to the pie

[00:28:31] not take away from it.

[00:28:33] So you know we have these things

[00:28:34] where we do these deep dives

[00:28:35] with them and round tables

[00:28:37] and we have these

[00:28:38] receptions for them.

[00:28:39] And we do this very

[00:28:40] pointed one on one

[00:28:41] meetings with them as well

[00:28:42] and different technology

[00:28:43] spotlights are important to them.

[00:28:44] So it was really things

[00:28:46] that the natural gas

[00:28:47] industry was looking for.

[00:28:48] And like I said,

[00:28:49] even those that had

[00:28:50] their own corporate venture

[00:28:51] group, their own

[00:28:51] innovation group,

[00:28:52] it was a compliment

[00:28:53] to what they were doing

[00:28:54] that they really

[00:28:55] were looking for.

[00:28:56] And but nonetheless,

[00:28:57] you get the notes

[00:28:58] and or you get

[00:29:01] the notes that were not yet.

[00:29:02] Like we want to talk fun too.

[00:29:03] So.

[00:29:05] What is your process?

[00:29:07] So when that happens, right?

[00:29:08] Like you go into a meeting.

[00:29:09] This is a really

[00:29:10] important meeting.

[00:29:10] You guys think that

[00:29:11] this is in the bag

[00:29:12] and it's a W for you

[00:29:13] and the fun.

[00:29:15] And yet they're excited,

[00:29:16] but they're like, no,

[00:29:17] that doesn't work, Vic.

[00:29:18] Sorry about that, man.

[00:29:19] Let's meet in the next three years.

[00:29:21] What is your process

[00:29:22] when you leave that meeting room

[00:29:24] to stay mentally,

[00:29:26] you know, level set?

[00:29:28] Yeah, so it's kind of

[00:29:30] the two ways you leave the rooms,

[00:29:31] because, you know,

[00:29:32] some of them are like

[00:29:33] oh, we're going to do something else.

[00:29:35] OK, fine.

[00:29:36] Most of them,

[00:29:37] most of them, it was that

[00:29:39] they were very they were like,

[00:29:40] you know, it was like that

[00:29:41] not bad breakups,

[00:29:42] but it's difficult.

[00:29:43] They're like,

[00:29:43] we're not going to do your thing.

[00:29:45] We're going to do your thing.

[00:29:46] We're fine.

[00:29:47] It's not you.

[00:29:47] It's us.

[00:29:48] We're not ready.

[00:29:48] But can we do the strategic

[00:29:51] engagement with you

[00:29:52] along the way?

[00:29:53] Like, can we still stay in touch?

[00:29:55] Can we do some,

[00:29:57] you know, brainstorming

[00:29:58] sessions on hydrogen?

[00:29:59] Can we bounce ideas for you?

[00:30:01] And these are really good

[00:30:03] people that you want to work with.

[00:30:04] And, you know, eventually you are.

[00:30:06] Odds are.

[00:30:07] And but it's like

[00:30:08] it's kind of a balance.

[00:30:09] I'm like because some of them

[00:30:10] you have to say, well,

[00:30:12] yes, I I'm doing that

[00:30:13] with the people

[00:30:14] that are actually giving us money

[00:30:16] as investors.

[00:30:17] So it's kind of disrespectful

[00:30:18] for them for me

[00:30:19] to provide the same value to you

[00:30:22] that is not investing, right?

[00:30:24] Because the resources

[00:30:24] I'm deploying to you,

[00:30:25] I can't deploy to them.

[00:30:27] So the really hard part

[00:30:29] was finding that balance

[00:30:30] with the not yet's

[00:30:31] to say, OK, we're going to do our thing

[00:30:33] in green molecules.

[00:30:34] We are going to be the only firm

[00:30:35] that's advocating for innovation

[00:30:37] in green molecules,

[00:30:38] which puts us in a different space,

[00:30:41] literally.

[00:30:41] And so, you know,

[00:30:43] what's that right balance

[00:30:43] from people that said no, that,

[00:30:44] OK, let's just connect with them

[00:30:47] kind of intermittently

[00:30:48] when we see things

[00:30:49] that are important to them.

[00:30:50] We're going to get it over to them.

[00:30:52] And how are we going to make this

[00:30:53] a win for everybody?

[00:30:54] And the reality is we did.

[00:30:55] We found a way to like

[00:30:57] have kind of a light interaction

[00:30:58] with the folks

[00:30:59] that aren't ready yet.

[00:31:00] And then the deep interaction

[00:31:02] and engagement with the folks

[00:31:03] that are actually our LPs.

[00:31:04] And until the point now, there's

[00:31:07] we did some math on it.

[00:31:08] There's over 30,

[00:31:09] maybe 32 different pilots

[00:31:10] or commercial relationships

[00:31:12] going on with companies.

[00:31:14] We actually decided not to invest in.

[00:31:16] Like we said,

[00:31:17] now we're not investing right wrong.

[00:31:18] We don't like the price.

[00:31:20] Wrong stage.

[00:31:22] Didn't really think

[00:31:22] was a venture deal.

[00:31:23] But we still took those companies

[00:31:25] and made connections

[00:31:26] to either our LPs

[00:31:27] or our broader network of corporates

[00:31:30] that we knew that was important to them.

[00:31:31] So we try to create as much

[00:31:34] benefit for the industry

[00:31:35] as possible with a hope that,

[00:31:38] you know, people will understand like,

[00:31:40] oh, these guys are the true advocates

[00:31:41] for green molecules.

[00:31:42] It's just not lip service.

[00:31:43] They're they're trying to help,

[00:31:45] even if maybe it's not

[00:31:46] in their direct interest or direct benefit.

[00:31:49] Of course, I love that.

[00:31:50] I mean, hopefully people unpack

[00:31:52] if you're not in venture.

[00:31:53] But the takeaway for anyone

[00:31:56] listening is always try to serve.

[00:31:59] I would say figure out how you can serve

[00:32:01] and be of value when it's also not

[00:32:03] transactional and relevant to you

[00:32:04] in the in the moment.

[00:32:06] Even if there is no dollar attached to it,

[00:32:07] because sometimes it pays dividends

[00:32:10] most times, I would argue.

[00:32:12] Vic, I want to get into just quickly

[00:32:13] on the on the

[00:32:15] I know you mentioned molecule.

[00:32:16] A lot of people listening

[00:32:17] probably aren't tied to the energy space.

[00:32:19] So in sort of more simple,

[00:32:21] layman kind of business terms,

[00:32:24] what what areas are you seeing

[00:32:26] that are most exciting right now

[00:32:28] that either either companies are chasing

[00:32:30] or you as an investment firm

[00:32:32] in that space are looking at?

[00:32:34] Yeah, you know, though

[00:32:35] our our thesis in Green Molecules

[00:32:37] kind of has two pillars, if you will.

[00:32:40] One is sustainability and resilience

[00:32:42] that gets us into all the hard

[00:32:43] tech and deep tech

[00:32:44] and then the digital transformation,

[00:32:46] which is your traditional software

[00:32:47] for operational efficiency, safety,

[00:32:51] digital transformation,

[00:32:52] those types of things.

[00:32:53] You know, the really exciting things

[00:32:55] that I see that are going to change

[00:32:57] the face of this planet

[00:32:59] when it comes to their energy,

[00:33:00] serving their energy needs

[00:33:02] in a clean, safe, reliable,

[00:33:03] cost effective way

[00:33:04] are definitely in that

[00:33:06] sustainability, resilient standpoint.

[00:33:08] So there's a lot of exciting

[00:33:10] things happening in hydrogen, right?

[00:33:12] Hydrogen is a next generation fuel

[00:33:13] source or this generation fuel source.

[00:33:16] Just a matter of cracking the code

[00:33:17] on manufacturing cheap hydrogen, right?

[00:33:20] So it's actually cheaper

[00:33:21] than natural gas,

[00:33:22] but yet can flow through

[00:33:23] the natural gas system.

[00:33:25] So you're taking advantage

[00:33:26] of the assets that are in place.

[00:33:28] We'll have an announcement

[00:33:29] coming out in the next week on that.

[00:33:31] I'd love to tell you more about it,

[00:33:32] but hopefully press release

[00:33:33] goes out the next week, maybe two.

[00:33:35] I always think so, right?

[00:33:36] So we've done some investing there.

[00:33:37] We're super excited about that.

[00:33:40] We're also excited about the future

[00:33:41] of renewable natural gas as well.

[00:33:43] So taking waste to gas,

[00:33:45] waste to an energy source,

[00:33:46] whether that's agricultural waste,

[00:33:50] wastewater and then throwing it

[00:33:52] through an anaerobic

[00:33:53] digestion process to get

[00:33:55] and create natural gas.

[00:33:56] And these are these energy

[00:33:57] sources that are super dense, right?

[00:34:00] They create like they're super dense

[00:34:02] and efficient like you're not losing

[00:34:04] huge amounts of energy

[00:34:05] when you go from production

[00:34:06] to transmission to distribution.

[00:34:08] Right.

[00:34:08] You're you're cost effectively

[00:34:10] getting energy to people's places.

[00:34:12] And so what we like

[00:34:13] are those hardtech

[00:34:14] molecular types of things.

[00:34:16] There's lots of people

[00:34:17] doing things on the grid with electrons.

[00:34:19] And we think that's great.

[00:34:21] But we just feel like

[00:34:22] that's served enough, right?

[00:34:23] There's plenty of people

[00:34:24] chasing wind, solar batteries

[00:34:27] in those types of storages.

[00:34:28] We're looking for the other side

[00:34:31] of the energy equation

[00:34:32] around the molecules.

[00:34:33] And we think those genera

[00:34:34] those next generation

[00:34:36] energy sources around the molecules

[00:34:38] are really going to be the ones

[00:34:39] that that solve a lot of world's problems,

[00:34:41] because, you know,

[00:34:42] as a front wheeler this way,

[00:34:43] if you solve energy, you solve climate.

[00:34:45] If you try to solve climate

[00:34:46] without solving energy,

[00:34:48] you end up with like,

[00:34:49] you know, dead mutants

[00:34:50] flying around their private jets,

[00:34:52] burning more carbon

[00:34:53] than any of us will ever burn

[00:34:54] in our entire life.

[00:34:56] And, you know, spouting,

[00:34:58] you know, platitudes, right?

[00:35:00] So we really look at it

[00:35:01] from that green

[00:35:01] molecule synergy standpoint.

[00:35:05] When you were first getting started

[00:35:06] with this fun structure and thesis,

[00:35:09] did you find it difficult to balance

[00:35:11] the innovation piece

[00:35:12] with the sustainability

[00:35:13] when you're trying to make

[00:35:14] these investment choices?

[00:35:15] My lawyer answer yes and no.

[00:35:17] Right. So first of all,

[00:35:18] when we started this thing,

[00:35:19] the green molecule.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:20] The question about green molecules,

[00:35:22] everyone laughed at us.

[00:35:23] They're like, that's stupid.

[00:35:25] Like you should be on the grid.

[00:35:27] Like no one's doing this stuff.

[00:35:28] Like, yeah, this is 2020.

[00:35:30] And we were talking about

[00:35:31] hydrogen renewable natural gas,

[00:35:34] biofuels, emissions management.

[00:35:37] People like, oh, no,

[00:35:38] that stuff never going anywhere.

[00:35:39] Right.

[00:35:40] Where we're seeing this

[00:35:41] and a respondent innovation

[00:35:42] in the space

[00:35:43] in an industry that needed it.

[00:35:44] So people are like,

[00:35:45] no, that's not what you should be doing.

[00:35:47] That's that's not it.

[00:35:48] Now play the tape forward

[00:35:49] and now look at everything you're seeing,

[00:35:51] whether it's on the regulation

[00:35:53] front with the IRA

[00:35:54] or in Canada with the ERA,

[00:35:56] you know, hydrogen renewable

[00:35:57] natural gas emissions management,

[00:36:00] the natural gas system.

[00:36:01] Like people like, oh yeah,

[00:36:02] that's 80 percent of the world's energy.

[00:36:04] We need to make it better.

[00:36:05] Right.

[00:36:05] So the focus is kind of shifted.

[00:36:07] So we're seeing

[00:36:08] even those pure play

[00:36:09] electrification firms

[00:36:10] come into our space

[00:36:11] and green molecules.

[00:36:13] We're seeing that generalist firms

[00:36:14] that aren't even energy

[00:36:15] or climate related

[00:36:16] come into our space.

[00:36:17] And we think it's great.

[00:36:19] Come on in.

[00:36:19] The water's deep.

[00:36:20] We need folks here with us.

[00:36:21] We can't do it all.

[00:36:22] And so that was kind of it.

[00:36:24] And so.

[00:36:26] It's your particular question.

[00:36:27] People had a lot of questions,

[00:36:30] like how does hydrogen

[00:36:31] solve for the climate?

[00:36:33] Right.

[00:36:33] Well, let's unpack it

[00:36:35] like done right.

[00:36:37] If you use synthetic biology

[00:36:38] to create hydrogen,

[00:36:40] you're actually net.

[00:36:41] You're not even net zero.

[00:36:42] You're actual zero.

[00:36:43] Right.

[00:36:44] It's in clean, cheap.

[00:36:48] I would say easy to transport

[00:36:50] energy source.

[00:36:51] That will be the sources

[00:36:52] up tomorrow.

[00:36:52] People like, oh, OK, I get it.

[00:36:54] Like renewable natural gas.

[00:36:56] People like, well, it's still gas.

[00:36:57] Yes.

[00:36:58] But it's actually kind of almost circular

[00:37:01] because you're taking waste product,

[00:37:02] whether it's food or agriculture, farms

[00:37:05] or wastewater in creating energy.

[00:37:08] Right.

[00:37:09] Energy that's super dense.

[00:37:10] Energy that's super efficient.

[00:37:12] That actually reduces the emissions

[00:37:14] and needs for other energy sources.

[00:37:16] So it's been

[00:37:17] it took people a little while to do that.

[00:37:19] And then people are realizing that,

[00:37:21] you know,

[00:37:23] if you talk about all fossil

[00:37:23] feels the same, it's like saying

[00:37:24] the average temperature

[00:37:25] in the United States.

[00:37:27] Well, that's meaningless.

[00:37:28] Right.

[00:37:28] Depends where you're at.

[00:37:29] Right.

[00:37:30] And so if you look at natural gas

[00:37:32] and the natural gas infrastructure

[00:37:34] as a way to transport

[00:37:35] and create these future

[00:37:37] sources of tomorrow,

[00:37:38] like, OK, that's part of

[00:37:40] the solution that's going to get us

[00:37:42] away from burning coal.

[00:37:44] That's going to tighten up

[00:37:45] the pipes within the oil

[00:37:47] and gas industry.

[00:37:48] So that they have less

[00:37:49] fugitive emissions.

[00:37:50] We're going to reduce flaring.

[00:37:52] We're going to reduce venting.

[00:37:54] We're going to make something

[00:37:55] that is clean as a whole,

[00:37:57] even cleaner.

[00:37:58] Right.

[00:37:59] So the point where, you know,

[00:38:01] wind and solar are

[00:38:03] they have reliability issues.

[00:38:04] It's just because the sun's

[00:38:04] not always out and the wind's

[00:38:05] not blowing and batteries

[00:38:06] are only going to store so much.

[00:38:07] So how do we work together

[00:38:08] with all these solutions

[00:38:09] to bring them together?

[00:38:10] So communities of all

[00:38:11] socioeconomic standpoints

[00:38:13] as well as all geographies

[00:38:14] can benefit from energy.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:16] And are you realizing

[00:38:17] there's a bit of ESG

[00:38:18] fatigue at the moment?

[00:38:20] I saw this kind of headline

[00:38:21] recently.

[00:38:22] I can't remember.

[00:38:22] It was like an article, but

[00:38:24] I'm sure you cross into this,

[00:38:25] you know, because you see

[00:38:26] companies all the time

[00:38:27] and maybe not saying

[00:38:29] these are the ones you work

[00:38:30] with, but there are big

[00:38:31] corps that claim all these

[00:38:33] ESG metrics and all these

[00:38:35] goals and objectives and how

[00:38:37] much of it actually gets done

[00:38:38] and the impact is always kind

[00:38:39] of questionable.

[00:38:40] Yeah. You know, I think we

[00:38:41] realized early in the

[00:38:42] early 2000s that we had

[00:38:44] Yeah. You know, I think we

[00:38:45] realized early on or I know

[00:38:46] we realized early on

[00:38:48] it wasn't about ESG

[00:38:49] or ESG for ESG's sake.

[00:38:52] It was really about

[00:38:53] sustainability and resilience

[00:38:54] of energy.

[00:38:55] Like if you could solve that

[00:38:58] all this other stuff

[00:38:59] wouldn't no matter what

[00:38:59] acronym you put on it

[00:39:01] goes away. Right.

[00:39:02] So focus on the value

[00:39:03] of the innovation and not

[00:39:04] the acronym that if we

[00:39:06] bring clean, safe, reliable

[00:39:07] cost effective energy

[00:39:09] leveraging the assets we have

[00:39:11] the world wins.

[00:39:12] Right. And like I said,

[00:39:13] the environment for

[00:39:15] environmental sake, you know,

[00:39:16] where you've got like,

[00:39:18] like I said, the platitudes

[00:39:19] and the virtue signaling

[00:39:21] and everything else is like

[00:39:22] no. Right.

[00:39:23] And that's what got us

[00:39:24] into the situation we are.

[00:39:25] Right. Because a lot of

[00:39:27] the ESG promises were just

[00:39:28] hollow, shallow platitudes

[00:39:31] right in a lot of virtues

[00:39:32] in not solving anything.

[00:39:33] So and the reality is

[00:39:35] these are new technologies.

[00:39:36] It's going to take time to

[00:39:37] get there and we're going

[00:39:38] to get them there and

[00:39:39] we're going to do the hard

[00:39:40] work.

[00:39:42] I want to end on this last

[00:39:43] note, which is more on

[00:39:44] the leadership side.

[00:39:45] I follow you on LinkedIn

[00:39:46] and I always give you

[00:39:47] props on on the content

[00:39:48] that you post, which is

[00:39:49] actually a lot more on

[00:39:51] the leadership piece,

[00:39:52] on the entrepreneurial lens.

[00:39:53] It's not very like

[00:39:54] technical on the energy

[00:39:56] side as an example,

[00:39:57] which I thoroughly enjoy.

[00:40:00] The leadership question

[00:40:01] I want to end with is

[00:40:02] more so about leading

[00:40:03] change, because

[00:40:05] you've been a leader

[00:40:06] in your career across

[00:40:08] different roles,

[00:40:09] organizations, you've

[00:40:10] let people you lead

[00:40:11] stakeholders still you

[00:40:12] lead because you oversee

[00:40:15] a ton of capital.

[00:40:16] But I think more

[00:40:17] importantly now is

[00:40:18] you're actually leading

[00:40:18] a bit of a movement

[00:40:19] in a nascent,

[00:40:21] you know, emerging

[00:40:22] vertical.

[00:40:23] What are your biggest

[00:40:24] lessons learned

[00:40:25] when it comes to

[00:40:26] leading change?

[00:40:27] Yeah, I think there

[00:40:28] there's two big lessons

[00:40:30] I've learned when

[00:40:31] it comes to leading change.

[00:40:33] The first, if you want

[00:40:34] to have generational

[00:40:35] long term impact

[00:40:37] and change,

[00:40:39] you've got to learn

[00:40:40] how to be effective

[00:40:41] working inside of a system.

[00:40:42] Working inside of an industry

[00:40:45] because you could stand

[00:40:46] on the outside

[00:40:47] and throw rocks in an industry

[00:40:49] and criticize it

[00:40:50] and make fun of it.

[00:40:51] And people are going

[00:40:52] to turn you around

[00:40:53] and you're never

[00:40:53] going to make a change.

[00:40:55] However, if you can get

[00:40:56] inside of the industry

[00:40:57] become an important

[00:40:58] part of it

[00:41:00] and people come to understand

[00:41:01] and relate to what

[00:41:02] you're doing

[00:41:03] and respect it,

[00:41:04] that's when you can

[00:41:05] make great change.

[00:41:07] That's when you see

[00:41:08] mass adoption

[00:41:09] of new technologies.

[00:41:11] That's when you see

[00:41:12] like true

[00:41:13] game changing impact.

[00:41:15] And so I think

[00:41:16] that is the first lesson on it.

[00:41:18] And the second lesson

[00:41:19] is once you're inside,

[00:41:20] people have to understand

[00:41:21] that you're doing it

[00:41:21] for a higher purpose.

[00:41:23] You're doing it

[00:41:23] for a bigger reason.

[00:41:24] It's bigger than you.

[00:41:26] It's bigger than your company.

[00:41:27] It's bigger than your firm,

[00:41:28] your technology,

[00:41:29] your family.

[00:41:30] It's something that

[00:41:31] you're going after

[00:41:32] because you truly want

[00:41:33] to do something

[00:41:34] that equates

[00:41:35] to a higher purpose

[00:41:36] and a bigger reason.

[00:41:37] And so between

[00:41:39] learning how to be effective

[00:41:41] inside an industry

[00:41:43] and having people understand

[00:41:45] and truly believing it

[00:41:46] that you're doing this

[00:41:47] for a higher purpose,

[00:41:48] a bigger reason.

[00:41:50] That's what really

[00:41:51] creates change

[00:41:51] and that's what gets

[00:41:52] people to adopt change

[00:41:53] because inherently

[00:41:54] people don't want to change.

[00:41:55] They're pretty comfortable.

[00:41:57] And if it becomes

[00:41:59] they're going to change

[00:42:00] because of some

[00:42:00] dire circumstance,

[00:42:02] that's never really good.

[00:42:04] Because that

[00:42:05] that effect of change,

[00:42:06] you have like,

[00:42:07] even if you're in

[00:42:08] a big company,

[00:42:09] like, I don't need to change.

[00:42:10] Like, I got 10 years

[00:42:11] between me and retirement.

[00:42:12] I'm not going to screw it up.

[00:42:13] I just need to do it.

[00:42:14] But if people know

[00:42:15] that you're part of a system,

[00:42:17] you're part of an industry,

[00:42:18] you're an advocate,

[00:42:19] but you're really doing

[00:42:20] it for a higher reason

[00:42:21] to create a better.