Madison was started by Sean Johnson. For 12 years he was a founding partner at Manifold, an early stage venture fund and innovation consulting firm. For 9 years he taught digital marketing at Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management. Sean learned the hard way how difficult it can be to market a professional services firm. Much of the playbook he learned working with startups simply didn't apply. He eventually learned how to turn himself and his team into Trusted Advisors who could build relationships and develop trust at scale. He codified those lessons into the Madison Playbook, and teaches other professional services firms how to do the same.
Madison | We Market Professional Services Firms (hiremadison.com)
[00:00:06] Alright, we're back with another episode Sean Johnson, good friend in Chicago. I appreciate you doing this man. Thanks for joining us
[00:00:12] No, it's fun to be here. I've been following your journey and impressive and
[00:00:21] So thank you sir
[00:00:22] You know the fact that you think that this might be helpful for anybody at this is is humbling
[00:00:28] So I'm excited to do this with you. I know it would be helpful
[00:00:31] And I told you by the way off the record. I gave a compliment now
[00:00:34] I think it's probably on the record that I think a lot of people who probably follow you on LinkedIn if you don't
[00:00:41] Trust me. This is one individual you definitely should
[00:00:45] Your it seems like every post whether it's on LinkedIn and newsletter anything you share
[00:00:51] Always sort of resonates with me. It's always a value and its content that I'm like man
[00:00:55] I don't know how this guy creates these things, but I'm always in awe so I admire your work a lot
[00:01:01] That's very nice to you. I appreciate that
[00:01:03] Of course, of course quick context for folks who don't know
[00:01:07] So you you've been in Chicago for quite some time. I met you in person
[00:01:11] I want to say a couple months back. We had coffee in Soho house the Sean Johnson. I knew when I first moved here is
[00:01:18] The was the founding partner of manifold the early stage venture fund innovation consulting firm
[00:01:25] You also the version I knew was also the Sean Johnson who taught digital marketing at Northwestern Kellogg School
[00:01:34] So those were sort of the two categories
[00:01:36] You then decided to create a Madison
[00:01:40] Which is sort of a firm the way I understand it is it's a firm that?
[00:01:47] Partners with and helps professional services firm think of accounting firms consulting firms law firms
[00:01:52] How do you take a playbook?
[00:01:55] That brings modern marketing from your digital courses from your days in VC and help them amplify a brand
[00:02:01] That's relevant in today's world
[00:02:03] Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. That's a good that those accurate summary of the last
[00:02:10] Two of 20 years
[00:02:12] No, so that's where we are today
[00:02:15] What I really wanted this I have so much to dive into I really want to focus on the Madison playbook
[00:02:21] Before we touch on that I always love to talk about careers
[00:02:25] you've had very
[00:02:26] Non-traditional careers unorthodox careers very entrepreneurial but in weird ways like you decide to do things that are not ordinary
[00:02:34] Yeah, for you was this all destined or was it sort of a spur of the moment you just kind of fell into
[00:02:42] Let's see. So it's yeah, I think it was probably a combination of things so
[00:02:47] If I go all the way back
[00:02:51] I
[00:02:51] Graduated undergrad at University of Colorado
[00:02:54] Unlike most of my friends I had the bright idea to go and start my own company
[00:02:58] And this was like pre like tech startups weren't like a huge thing yet
[00:03:02] So I didn't know what the hell I was doing
[00:03:05] Started a web company like a web design firm with one other partner
[00:03:09] And our clients were like an iron-working shop and a mausoleum and a dentist and stuff like that
[00:03:14] So it was like, you know in small town, Colorado kind of thing
[00:03:19] I
[00:03:20] Shut it down. I made the decision on a whim
[00:03:25] I
[00:03:25] Had grown up in Colorado. I decided I needed to leave
[00:03:29] And just just see quote the world I guess I ended up I went to Seattle
[00:03:35] And I had intros to all of the major ad agencies
[00:03:38] I was always been pretty good at like networking and finding mentors and maintaining relationships and that kind of thing
[00:03:43] And I had a mentor who was on the board for the American Advertising Association
[00:03:47] And he got me in the door with the principles of not this Seattle had like an amazing ad
[00:03:54] Ecosystem but they have some big firms and went in there and I was you know, I tried to go in very humble and like I'll work on the
[00:04:00] mail room like I'll do anything. I just want to have an opportunity and
[00:04:05] They just they were not hiring at that time. This was kind of like dot-com bubble stuff
[00:04:10] and
[00:04:11] So I was a waiter at a seafood restaurant
[00:04:14] And I met a girl in Vegas
[00:04:19] At a bachelor party and she was at her special at party. She lived in New York
[00:04:23] She was getting her masters at NYU. She worked at Ernst and Young and I was a waiter at Seaford restaurant Seattle
[00:04:30] It's a good start to the story. Yeah, and I was like chapter one workout. Yeah, exactly
[00:04:34] So but I'm charming and fun
[00:04:36] And so we stayed in touch and I ended up moving to New York about three months after we met and
[00:04:43] Got a needle in a haystack job on Craigslist as an account manager at what we would now call a tech startup. They were doing like
[00:04:50] marketing campaigns for universities basically at the time and
[00:04:54] But we had this idea to build
[00:04:58] What we would now call a social network
[00:05:02] And
[00:05:02] It was all I can flash it was it was hilarious
[00:05:05] It was like everything about it was so silly but
[00:05:07] But it was in a window it was like and and you know now everybody understands ad models and things like that
[00:05:13] We sold everything and like annual licenses and so, you know when you're a hammer everything looks like an ale
[00:05:18] So that's how we did it. We sold them to the individual universities
[00:05:21] But it was in like the yield window
[00:05:23] So like if you get accepted to three different schools, and they're all kind of the same
[00:05:27] The idea was like if you make friends at one school before you get to campus
[00:05:30] You're gonna be more likely to go there was kind of the premise and it worked really well
[00:05:33] We got bought by private equity. It was kind of a
[00:05:36] You know like a little baby rocket ship in a way
[00:05:39] I went from account manager to creative director in about 18 months and it was super fun
[00:05:44] So that one I think would very much be like serendipity
[00:05:47] I would say, you know, like I met a girl in Vegas
[00:05:49] And that's how that kind of changed the trajectory of my career in many ways. I think if I had not met her
[00:05:54] I would be
[00:05:56] hopefully, you know a pretty
[00:05:59] talented person in an ad agency in Seattle right now and so
[00:06:04] Yeah, so that kind of changed everything
[00:06:08] But I would say like later in my career
[00:06:11] So like the you know and most kind of saliently to today's conversation the decision to do Madison
[00:06:20] Was
[00:06:22] Part self-preservation part like getting in touch with who I am so I was starting to deal with we had a
[00:06:29] Manifold is that we called it called it a venture holding company
[00:06:31] I had a couple and I had a couple other partners
[00:06:33] We were about 70 people when I when I left but
[00:06:36] We had a so many person innovation consulting firm
[00:06:39] And then we had a venture fund that had 25 or so investments at the time and as you know like early stage venture
[00:06:45] You know 70% of your investments are on fire for some reason or another it's like, you know, so just
[00:06:51] The anxiety was intense and in it eventually and to my you know
[00:06:55] My partner's credit and other people who I know their credit like they're able to handle that
[00:07:00] level of
[00:07:02] Why was that anxiety provoking like what piece of part of it?
[00:07:07] So so you had you had everything associated with the running the consulting business
[00:07:10] So your team and they want what they want and the client
[00:07:14] You know, you have certain clients that are somewhere different than others
[00:07:17] And so you're juggling all of that on top of that
[00:07:20] We had all of our venture stuff and and one of the one of the initial premises at least of the fund in the beginning
[00:07:27] Was that we were going to be value of like a very much a value-added firm anyway, it was like
[00:07:32] We want to be the most legitimately helpful firm that you partner with as a startup
[00:07:38] We evolved I think a little bit beyond that it was a lot more surgical kind of at the end
[00:07:42] I think you know kind of the
[00:07:46] Some of the strongest founders that we had in our portfolio candidly didn't want our help
[00:07:51] Which is fine, you know, like that was something we learned but but I think I emotionally
[00:07:57] bore
[00:07:58] Their stress in a way and so it's like you're carrying the stress of kind of running trying to run your own business
[00:08:04] You're also carrying the stress of all of these other ones in your portfolio
[00:08:08] And again for some people they can do it. I feel like
[00:08:13] Something kind of broke in me at one point and I just was like I can't keep doing this and so
[00:08:19] And I think at the same time like we were talking about what we wanted out of the next 10 years of our life and
[00:08:26] My you know my partners I think wanted to keep growing and more bigger and better and more and
[00:08:33] Feeling the way that I felt especially it was like
[00:08:35] I don't know if I have it in me to continue to do that to go down that trajectory
[00:08:41] And just to take on more complexity and more whatever and I don't know if it's worth it for my soul and so
[00:08:49] Yeah, so I made the decision to step away from the firm. I did not have a plan
[00:08:53] I took about 18 months off
[00:08:56] That was very hard just kind of psychologically like who am I
[00:09:02] It was it felt good to say that like you're a GP at a fund and like you were kind of a big deal and people wanted to meet with you and
[00:09:09] Now, you know, I'm sort of super dad
[00:09:11] And you know, I did this like I did this like coaching thing for a little bit
[00:09:18] And really really enjoyed it. I know I don't like calling
[00:09:20] I didn't I never liked felt comfortable calling myself a coach or anything like that though that I was kind of
[00:09:25] Bucked me
[00:09:27] So anyway, so I mean I took 18 months off around 12 months into that I started getting antsy and
[00:09:32] This time around I
[00:09:35] Would say it was the opposite of serendipity. It was like I want to learn
[00:09:38] From
[00:09:40] Previous lessons. I want to ask myself like what do I really want get away from a lot of the noise
[00:09:47] Because my initial
[00:09:49] Answer to that would have been go start a startup or go do another fund or whatever and so
[00:09:55] I actually like developed kind of a practice of solitude
[00:09:58] Trying to like unplug like no book. No phone. No laptop. No journal like like just first of all
[00:10:04] Just be comfortable being me and exist. Yeah, exactly
[00:10:08] Way harder than it sounds or maybe it is as hard as it sounds. I don't know
[00:10:12] It is not it is sorry as hard as it's on. Yeah, it was it was
[00:10:16] Not an enjoyable experience, but I think a very formative one
[00:10:22] And I think that's what kind of got me to I liked building
[00:10:27] The consulting business more than I liked doing the fund like the fund sounds cooler
[00:10:31] To a certain group of people at least
[00:10:34] And I think I that might be the ego part of me
[00:10:38] The pride part of me the pot of gold at the end of rainbow part of me
[00:10:42] Like resonated with that stuff and there were parts of it. I liked I liked helping our founders
[00:10:46] I liked sitting in pitch meetings and listening to cool ideas and
[00:10:50] You know learning about the world
[00:10:53] Was super fascinating and trying to be helpful, but I really really liked the consulting business and
[00:10:58] The element of like service. I like consultants themselves. I think they're charming and winsome and
[00:11:04] well read and
[00:11:07] You know that kind of thing and so
[00:11:10] Kind of made a non
[00:11:12] Obvious decision to kind of lean into that
[00:11:16] And so started exploring ideas around like what would that look like? So that was kind of how that process went
[00:11:23] There's a lot to unpack there. I
[00:11:25] I resonate with
[00:11:27] With a lot of the the personal side of things
[00:11:30] And I can imagine how difficult that is I mean, I think if
[00:11:33] Given that we live in I think the third largest city in the us
[00:11:39] A lot of our work is tied to the go-go-go
[00:11:41] It's tied to the title and it's tied to the value that you provide is also tied to your status
[00:11:47] Yeah, naturally speaking
[00:11:49] And so I think that to realize that that's something that you're willing to give up in pursuit of something that is more aligned with
[00:11:56] What makes you personally more fulfilled?
[00:11:59] Yeah, it's it's hard because I don't even know how most people even get there including myself
[00:12:03] Like how do you is it questions? Is it soul searching? Did you travel for like a year and a half? You know
[00:12:09] Yeah, um, I so certain things that were helpful. So, um, sure
[00:12:14] Like I said kind of unplugging from all of the noise like I don't think we fully appreciate that
[00:12:18] What we're swimming in on a day-to-day basis and then the amount of information that we're kind of being bombarded with and the end
[00:12:24] We I had a mentor a long time ago that said you pick up ideas like lint
[00:12:29] Like you don't even fully realize it and so like you have these presuppositions or you have these framing stories
[00:12:35] Or these first principles or whatever you want to call them
[00:12:37] And we would like to think that we were very deliberate in the
[00:12:42] cultivation and organization of those
[00:12:45] But in most cases we got all of that stuff through osmosis and it takes a tremendous amount of work
[00:12:50] to disconnect from that and to challenge some of those assumptions and to
[00:12:56] deconstruct it
[00:12:57] and like the one I've talked about I think I told you this but
[00:13:01] One of the ones that was really dominant for me was the homemade den and the universe narrative
[00:13:06] And I I think I realized
[00:13:09] And I might be wrong about this
[00:13:10] but like I have a theory that make it then in the universe kind of is it is an artifact of
[00:13:15] Venture and a portfolio theory and it's like if I know
[00:13:18] That 80 or 90 percent of my investments are going to effectively go to zero
[00:13:23] The ones that hit it's a power loss
[00:13:26] So like the ones that hit have to really really hit and they have to make it make it dense in the universe
[00:13:29] as defined by some massive massive
[00:13:32] outcome and
[00:13:34] While there's nothing wrong with that
[00:13:36] What I do think I think it's I don't think I think it's a very limited narrative for most people and so it's like
[00:13:41] The number of people who make a den in the universe as defined by that narrative is very very small and
[00:13:48] You know like
[00:13:50] The the person who walks your dog or who cleans your house or the barista at your coffee shop or
[00:13:56] You know, I went on my dad retired and
[00:13:59] Got really involved with his church down in texas and started going on these like mission
[00:14:03] medical trips down like to hunder us and he invited me to go I never done anything like that and I was like sure
[00:14:09] I'll go
[00:14:10] like
[00:14:11] It was staggering and and just I was I just found myself thinking over and over again about like
[00:14:16] The water that I swim in in my default state
[00:14:20] Compared to these people who have never heard of
[00:14:23] You know sequoia
[00:14:26] Whatever and like
[00:14:29] Just whatever like my my narrative that was animating so much of things
[00:14:35] Has nothing to say to those people and so like
[00:14:38] The answer is either. Um, I'm right and everybody else is wrong, but I don't think that was true
[00:14:42] So like I wanted something that was broader and more redeeming for more people
[00:14:47] um, and so that was kind of
[00:14:49] The deconstruction part. Um, the other part as it related to kind of getting brass tacks about like my life was
[00:14:55] um, I the way I arrived at the consulting thing and the pressure services thing was
[00:15:01] I started by asking myself
[00:15:02] It's like the the statue of david thing of like
[00:15:05] How did you make the statue of david and michael angelo said I started with a block of marvel
[00:15:10] And I cut away everything that wasn't david and it was sort of this idea of like subtraction first
[00:15:15] And so I asked myself like what do I not want and?
[00:15:18] Um, and it led me down some surprising
[00:15:21] Directions like I realized like at least for this season. I don't want business partners
[00:15:25] I've always had business partners
[00:15:27] There's a part of me that always wondered like what am I capable of and what am I not capable of?
[00:15:31] Like there's a negotiation that has to happen kind of at all times around
[00:15:37] The vision of a thing what your values are as an organization sort of becomes an amalgam of everybody's values
[00:15:43] Which again, nothing necessarily wrong with it, but like I wanted to see
[00:15:47] What does it look like to build something?
[00:15:50] In your quote unquote your own image in a way and having a purity in that and not having to
[00:15:55] And what would that look like and also see like one of my if I if I fail
[00:16:00] I don't have anybody to blame and it's just me like I'm either
[00:16:04] Like you know, so um that was intriguing to me. So I wrote that down. I wrote down that I did not want
[00:16:11] investors
[00:16:13] Because there's a certain sense in which and as I saw as soon as you raise money
[00:16:17] It's no longer your company like I had control
[00:16:20] We may have owned 10 of a business
[00:16:22] But we had control provisions that allowed us to prevent you from doing certain things
[00:16:28] And also committed you to a timetable
[00:16:30] That it was rather somewhat artificial like it's a function of like the money you raised and when I want to see a return
[00:16:35] Of my investments and I encourage you to spend it, you know
[00:16:40] Etc etc etc so it's it's sort of an artificial
[00:16:43] The way I remember talking to my dad about it and we were talking about like how
[00:16:47] Starting a company is like jumping out of an airplane and trying to build the parachute before you hit the ground
[00:16:52] And it was like raising money
[00:16:54] You you it's like you have a jetpack attached to your back, but you're still pointed at the ground
[00:17:01] Figure it out quickly. So you're yeah, exactly so um
[00:17:05] So
[00:17:07] That was interesting and then like similarly like debt
[00:17:11] I wanted it to be a business that I could effectively like bootstrap that had low capex
[00:17:16] the the anxiety thing like
[00:17:18] Peace was a meaningful piece of the puzzle for me in this new season of my life. So like I will
[00:17:24] I have ambition. I want to build a successful company, but not at the expense of of my peace or the peace of my
[00:17:31] My family. I don't want my kids for the couple of years that they're still in my house
[00:17:36] To see me frenzied and here to absorb it. Yeah, I distracted. Yeah, like I want to be
[00:17:41] And I actually think I was relatively good at this in terms of being physically present
[00:17:45] I mean mentally for the family, but yeah, like I'd be sitting at dinner and I was somewhere else
[00:17:49] So like I wanted
[00:17:51] um
[00:17:52] I don't want I didn't want to be on anyone else's timetable and I didn't want
[00:17:57] Wanted to minimize the number of external pressures. I guess was maybe a common theme and so
[00:18:06] And by disconnecting from like to make it then in the universe thing, it's like I feel like I get to
[00:18:13] meaningfully build into my clients lives and that could be transformative for them
[00:18:18] and
[00:18:19] Cultivating a team
[00:18:21] You know, I'm in the very very early stages of kind of starting down that process
[00:18:24] but like wanting to build into people and
[00:18:28] kind of grow my own like billwalsh coaching tree so to speak
[00:18:33] And prove that it is possible to kind of reconcile ambition and contentment and to be able to like move through one's life
[00:18:40] at a cadence
[00:18:42] That is peaceful
[00:18:48] Both for my sake and also like to prove that it can be done
[00:18:51] You know, I think like I like I would love for
[00:18:55] And i'm not there yet. I've done a long way to go
[00:18:57] But like I would love to be at a place at some point where
[00:19:01] You know, someone gets coffee with me or something like that and they just have a sense that I
[00:19:05] Have all of these things going on
[00:19:07] But I'm deeply deeply present in this conversation that we're having and I don't have this
[00:19:12] You don't get the sense that I'm running around like a psycho and you don't get a sense that I
[00:19:17] Am living in fear or any of those kinds of things so
[00:19:22] But yeah, I mean it was 18 months of work to get to this
[00:19:26] Yeah, that's why I'm sort of digging into it
[00:19:28] and I always love doing this on the podcast because
[00:19:31] I think for a lot of the information that you do and we're going to talk a bit about that
[00:19:35] But it's what interests me more is sort of what people don't see behind the scenes
[00:19:39] That allows you to get to where you are and the sort of surface level of shan johnson that they see on linkedin once in a while
[00:19:45] Yeah, because I think that's healthy to talk about
[00:19:49] I wanted to bring up something that that has profoundly impacted me in the past three days
[00:19:55] Something that I've picked up. It's an object at the airport, which I pick up a lot of and I don't always complete and these are books
[00:20:02] Um, I picked up this book dude at the airport called the midnight library
[00:20:07] Yeah, you ever read this
[00:20:10] Dude if there's one thing I would recommend especially in this season of your life given what we're talking about
[00:20:15] Yeah
[00:20:16] Hands down the best investment you can make
[00:20:18] $18 probably marked up at it's like 14 on amazon
[00:20:22] Um, it was such a compelling story
[00:20:25] Basically the narrative and I this is why I want to share this to connect it to what you're saying
[00:20:29] Narrative is you have someone who's who's in england
[00:20:32] Uh, could have been this like amazing olympian swimmer because her parents really wanted her to be
[00:20:37] Could have been in a rock star band because her brother wanted it to be you want her to be that
[00:20:41] ends up her reality is this like
[00:20:44] You know average life working at a guitar store in a village suburb an hour away from
[00:20:51] You know london england and to everybody on the outside not married doesn't have kids on the outside
[00:20:56] It just looked like you know dismal failure
[00:20:59] And she uh tries to od I'm not going to ruin the whole thing but tries to od
[00:21:03] Then it's caught between life and death has this like visual of a library never ending library
[00:21:08] Picks up a book that book is the book of regrets
[00:21:11] Literally a massive book every its sentences line of regrets everything that she regretted
[00:21:17] The best part is she then has options
[00:21:20] Long window of books that she can choose different lives these would have been different outcomes or possibilities
[00:21:26] Had she decided to make different choices in her life?
[00:21:30] Yeah, the beauty though of this whole thing is it starts showing you that
[00:21:33] Had she picked up when she picks up the book of her as an olympic swimmer
[00:21:37] She quickly realizes that that dream when she's in it she gets a bit of a taste
[00:21:42] She didn't realize that there were variables in that life that actually were pretty shitty
[00:21:47] Yeah
[00:21:47] You know like she was constantly training and exhausted. She lived in like a dormitory room with a roommate who constantly was like high on drop
[00:21:55] You know, um her father in that life was not present. He had passed away
[00:22:01] Uh and it all just goes to show that it's kind of the little parts of your life that you do have that actually
[00:22:06] Can make a dent in the universe to tie it back
[00:22:09] And it was a small thing. She wasn't realizing that she did have in her actual life
[00:22:14] You know like the encounter with her elderly neighbor that she would pick up medicine for
[00:22:19] You know all the the tiny things that she was doing that to her felt completely useless
[00:22:23] We're actually making a dent in the universe. And so anyways long story. Well, yeah
[00:22:28] So one of the things I wrote down as my new sort of like kpi for life
[00:22:34] I called it funeral worthy relationships
[00:22:37] And um, I had a story 15 years ago
[00:22:41] About some guy
[00:22:43] In texas like west texas who worked at a school like I know like a high school and he passed away
[00:22:48] And the author was invited to go give the eulogy
[00:22:53] Um, and so he was flying into town and as it was getting closer and closer
[00:22:56] He kept getting phone calls about how they had to move it and do a like a slightly larger venue
[00:23:00] And long story short, they ended up having to have this dude's funeral in a baseball field
[00:23:04] And there were 2000 people that came and he wasn't like
[00:23:08] Fabulous
[00:23:08] Yeah at all like nobody knew who like you would never have heard of this guy
[00:23:11] But there was something about the impact that he made on those people's lives
[00:23:16] That was material and so
[00:23:19] I just love I love the idea because there is a certain absurdity to the idea of like legacy as in like
[00:23:26] You know like thomas edison
[00:23:28] Like that's the best I think one can hope for is like to be thomas edison or polian or whatever and like what that practically means
[00:23:34] is that he's a
[00:23:36] paragraph and an encyclopedia
[00:23:39] That um my kids don't want to read and so it's just sort of like or it's like a trivia. It's like an answer to a trivia question
[00:23:45] You know what I mean and so but
[00:23:47] um
[00:23:48] Everybody in terms of like a narrative that is redeeming everybody
[00:23:52] can make a choice to
[00:23:55] Almost regardless of the job that you have
[00:23:58] Yes, regardless of your station in life. How do I show up for the people that kind of are directly around me?
[00:24:03] And build into them in such material ways that when I pass it like and there's a certain morbidity to this
[00:24:10] And I also won't know
[00:24:11] how good of a job I did until I'm you know
[00:24:15] Because I'll be dead but um
[00:24:18] I just liked this idea because I think it would it would change the way in which I show up
[00:24:23] For clients for team members for friends for family etc
[00:24:30] You would you would pursue, you know kind of your to your point around like doing these podcasts and kind of digging into the
[00:24:35] why like
[00:24:36] You would you would pursue
[00:24:39] deeper conversation
[00:24:41] You would pursue more meaningful connection
[00:24:43] You would pursue
[00:24:47] Trying your best to build into people trying to find ways to help them
[00:24:53] kind of
[00:24:54] Self-actualize whatever you just want to call it. Um, so yeah, it was a very that was a very very
[00:25:01] helpful reframing for me
[00:25:03] And I'm I fail every day at this but um, I'm trying at least
[00:25:08] To show up
[00:25:10] With that kind of in the background like I love the idea of like
[00:25:15] What would it be like if if a bunch of my clients came?
[00:25:19] You know like you tend to think about these relationships as being relatively transactional
[00:25:23] I love the like I showed my son jerry mcguire for the first time
[00:25:25] And you know like the end where they hug or whatever and the agency
[00:25:29] That kind of relationship like I I love that idea. I want my clients to feel like
[00:25:34] I'm there
[00:25:35] They're jerry mcguire, you know, they're jerry mcguire, so
[00:25:38] Yeah, and like, you know, i'm a flawed person and i'm going to mess up and that won't happen for everybody
[00:25:42] But like sure kind of a neat thing to work work toward
[00:25:46] Well, that's one differentiator too is you talk a lot about this as well
[00:25:50] Which is what I wanted to dive into next. So thank you for the segue
[00:25:54] For you
[00:25:55] Everybody talks about building meaningful relationships. It's easy to say that personally right, but when you're also
[00:26:01] At a professional services firm, especially that becomes sometimes hard for some people to do naturally
[00:26:08] Because there's always this, you know looming light of hey, shan love you buddy
[00:26:13] But I also know that you're working at this accounting firm and you're trying to build it
[00:26:17] so
[00:26:19] How have you naturally been able to not only build meaningful relationships but garner that trust
[00:26:24] In a way that actually is genuine to the person in front of you
[00:26:28] Yeah, I think the best one and this isn't this this only works if you start from the premise that the purpose of
[00:26:35] This is another so
[00:26:38] You know, I grew up in kind of a faith tradition
[00:26:40] I made like this at one point that I haven't shared
[00:26:43] I've shared with a couple of people but it was called a theology of work
[00:26:47] And it was kind of challenging this idea
[00:26:50] That the purpose the primary purpose of a business is to maximize shareholder value. It wasn't always that way
[00:26:56] And you can find writers like john ruskin
[00:26:59] Like louis brandeis who
[00:27:02] Talk about business in a way that has a bit of an ability to it that I think we've lost
[00:27:09] Um and it talked about like like ruskin talks about like the physician the five
[00:27:13] major professions and it was like the physician's job
[00:27:18] is to heal
[00:27:20] um
[00:27:21] The society the the soldier's job is to protect it
[00:27:25] um
[00:27:26] There's a couple of like the teachers to teach it or whatever and then the
[00:27:30] The merchant's job is to provide for it. And so
[00:27:33] um
[00:27:35] And it said that the you know profit is a
[00:27:39] necessary
[00:27:40] An appropriate like adjunct to this like you you do a good job. You will have
[00:27:46] Profit but that is not the point
[00:27:48] Any more than the point of the teacher teaching is to get their stipend
[00:27:52] The point of the teacher is to educate
[00:27:55] The society or the group of people in which they kind of are are
[00:27:59] Accountable for or responsible for and so I love that idea of like my job is to provide
[00:28:05] for my little
[00:28:07] Society my little kingdom and there's a part of that that is like my kids and my parents or my family or whatever
[00:28:13] But it's also bigger than that like part of my job is to provide for my clients. And so
[00:28:20] um
[00:28:21] I have profit goals. I have revenue goals, but this is not a profit or revenue maximization exercise
[00:28:28] And in fact like I think for the most part my clients would say
[00:28:32] That I undercharge
[00:28:34] And I do that
[00:28:36] Deliberately I do that for multiple reasons one. I want to get as many rep like there's a practical part of that
[00:28:40] If like I want to load up and get as many case studies references. Yeah all that and practice reps. Yeah
[00:28:45] Yeah, there's a there's a practical part of that
[00:28:47] But as there should be I mean, yeah, so like there's a there's a there's a narrative out there about like value-based pricing
[00:28:55] And charge what you're worth and all these kinds of things and I think that there is a
[00:29:00] Tension that that potentially creates around
[00:29:03] You're constantly having to ask yourself. Are you getting what you paid for here?
[00:29:07] And one of my goals with this one through good systems and good training and good coaching and mentoring and whatever
[00:29:15] um, I want to
[00:29:17] build an organization that delivers
[00:29:19] Incredible like great results for clients consistently every single time
[00:29:24] Such that they're just thrilled like they can't believe how lucky they are that they get to work here with us
[00:29:29] Um and part of that is like the ROI equation, you know, and I want
[00:29:33] You know, my dad was a business consultant grown up and like he used to say like
[00:29:38] I want the value that I generate to be 10 times what they're paying like that's his lead mis-test
[00:29:44] And it's hard to quantify and blah blah blah blah blah, but like I want people to directionally feel like they're getting a bargain
[00:29:49] So that's one piece of it is that they know I'm not I'm not gouging them. I'm not
[00:29:56] Like, you know, like I am a bargain the other piece of it is
[00:30:01] And part of this I think it's the best way to to market professional services firms
[00:30:06] I call it like give away your secrets. It is like
[00:30:10] You are buying my brain and so if my
[00:30:14] If my approach to marketing and my approach to sales is to hold everything close to my chest
[00:30:20] and
[00:30:21] share
[00:30:22] vague
[00:30:23] Kind of garbage stuff
[00:30:25] You're inferring from that like what my
[00:30:28] If my if the stuff that you're seeing me putting on the world sucks
[00:30:32] The stuff that you're gonna hire me for is probably gonna suck too
[00:30:35] And so like and then the reverse is true if I give you my best stuff for free like
[00:30:39] There's a version of that that's like well, what is what does it like to work with this person?
[00:30:42] Um, so I try to just add value with every interaction
[00:30:48] and
[00:30:49] um
[00:30:49] I think that's how I try to approach
[00:30:52] The stuff that you read like on linkedin like, you know, it was nice of you to say that
[00:30:56] I don't like I always you always wonder like is this helpful or not helpful or whatever
[00:31:01] But that's the goal like I'm not trying to go viral. I'm not trying to be an influencer
[00:31:06] I'm trying to serve people and so
[00:31:09] Um, and I hope that that comes through in those interactions
[00:31:12] Of course
[00:31:14] And it the same thing is true in the buying window
[00:31:16] So it's like I will give you as much value as I possibly can
[00:31:21] During the sales process like I've written document like like I don't I don't do proposals
[00:31:25] I have a page and a half engagement letter
[00:31:28] Like when you tell me you want to work with me. I have a page and a half engagement letter
[00:31:31] It's very straightforward, but what I do have are
[00:31:35] Like vision statements. So like it's almost like I will write down
[00:31:39] How to grow blank like this is this is a vision of what your company could be
[00:31:45] And I try to tell you exactly in detail what I would do
[00:31:49] And how I think you should go about it and you can take it and you can run with it
[00:31:52] And you can do it and you never have to hire me and that's fine and I've done that a bunch of times
[00:31:57] um because I believe a
[00:32:00] Um
[00:32:01] Before they're engaged you're saying like before they're even a client. You're like hey before we get started. Here's the glimpse of
[00:32:09] The work will come like details and the bullet points all that cool stuff will come the boring stuff
[00:32:13] But here's what I think it could be
[00:32:15] Well, and I'm using this like you know, I wrote a post yesterday about like being 5% strategic like I think a lot of people
[00:32:22] try to
[00:32:23] Have corn like they want to they want to have
[00:32:25] They want to have corner offices and minions and they want to think deep thoughts
[00:32:30] They don't want to do the hard work and like yeah, and the world is full of consultants like that
[00:32:36] What I have perceived as at least for boutique firms like they need helping the trenches and so like
[00:32:41] I've sort of done this thing where I I do I will do like positioning workshops
[00:32:45] Like if it's like a material kind of investment of time
[00:32:48] I've done some of that kind of stuff
[00:32:50] But I will give you
[00:32:53] My playbook of like how I would do this if I were your company sort of generally
[00:32:58] Um
[00:32:59] Which a lot of people would consider to be like quote strategy work like I'll
[00:33:03] I'll give you that for free because what I want is the
[00:33:07] I know that ultimately you need help executing this and so like I want to
[00:33:12] earn the right
[00:33:13] to
[00:33:14] Be your partner in the trenches kind of showing up each day with my lunch pail and like doing the work
[00:33:20] Um, I love that reference. Yeah partner in the trenches
[00:33:23] That's what i'm trying to do and so I think all of those things you put all those things together and I think that people perceive
[00:33:31] That like yeah, I'll hop on a call with you and riff on ideas and I'll I can I will sometimes write you a
[00:33:37] S an eight page document of like this is step by step how I would grow your company
[00:33:42] And I'm not asking for
[00:33:44] You know, I am saying like if you think that anything in here will be helpful and you want to work with me
[00:33:48] Like let's have that conversation, but I'm not
[00:33:51] um
[00:33:53] Yeah, I am I am
[00:33:55] The way I encapsulated everything was like I want to get really clear on who I'm serving and how
[00:34:00] I want to communicate that
[00:34:02] As frequently and as hopefully as I possibly can and then I want to create respectful ways for people to raise their hand when they're ready
[00:34:09] um
[00:34:10] This isn't the only way to grow up company like I think that it's it is 100 possible to do the very aggressive like lead gen
[00:34:18] You know, etc playbook
[00:34:21] That's not my playbook and that's not a playbook that I
[00:34:24] Feel comfortable doing like I want to respect you and I want to respect your intelligence
[00:34:29] And I want to respect your time
[00:34:31] And I just sort of trust if I keep showing up and I'm taking a long time horizon too and again this is like
[00:34:37] Benefits of not having to negotiate with other partners and their goals benefits of not having investors who have certain timetables is like
[00:34:44] I'm taking a 10-year 20-year time horizon with this thing
[00:34:48] And I'm like if I just if I just keep showing up for you and I keep adding value
[00:34:52] Either we will work together at some point or somebody in your network
[00:34:57] Will need what I have to offer and I will be the first person you think of and it will
[00:35:02] I will I will end up being just fine
[00:35:04] And in the meantime, I get to just show up each day trying to be helpful for people and sometimes I get paid for it
[00:35:09] and sometimes I don't and
[00:35:11] um
[00:35:12] I think I can build a successful company that way. Can I build a billion dollar company that way probably not
[00:35:18] But that's not my goal. Um, and so
[00:35:21] Is your playbook I'm kind of curious personally in fact on this one
[00:35:26] Because I know one of the things that you one of the tenants that you believe in which is also on the website is
[00:35:32] You believe in 10-year increments like for you compound compounding in general is super important
[00:35:38] And in finance for example, the the key to compound is time like that's the exponent
[00:35:43] why is
[00:35:45] Why is that so crucial number one number two?
[00:35:49] can that sometimes
[00:35:51] Not work against you but say if if you are believing in 10 years and say that you tend to move
[00:35:57] Within different services firms say within like four or five years
[00:36:01] Does that sometimes make it difficult to rebrand and
[00:36:05] Get the narrative out again or could use that as an exciting platform to reposition and repurpose the playbook
[00:36:11] I see
[00:36:13] Um, okay. So when I say 10 years
[00:36:19] The the logic behind that
[00:36:21] So when I stepped away
[00:36:23] From manifold
[00:36:25] There was a sense in which I looked back and I was like I was really proud of what we built because I was like
[00:36:30] If you would have told me we were a product development shop working with startups at our first clients
[00:36:35] I think we you know, we would build an entire like web and mobile application for like 25 grand when we started the company and
[00:36:43] um
[00:36:44] Where we were able to get to
[00:36:46] And you know, like it was problematic and I had you know a lot of anxiety and those kinds of things at the same time
[00:36:51] though like it was kind of shocking what I felt like we were able to build
[00:36:55] In a 10-year period of time
[00:36:58] And are there people that are certainly better than me and build things faster and bigger and blah blah blah
[00:37:02] But I was impressed with what we were able to do relative to what I thought I was doing when we started out. So
[00:37:09] I asked myself like well
[00:37:11] What if that's how I started thinking about things and
[00:37:15] I think when I was younger I was obsessed with not just being successful but being young and successful
[00:37:21] And I think a lot of people
[00:37:24] Are and there are so many structures that kind of that feed into this like
[00:37:27] For up to 30 under 30 when you're a public. Yeah, like when you when you're a public company you have quarterly, you know
[00:37:34] Goals and if you don't hear quarterly goals, it's problem. Um, when you raise money from venture
[00:37:39] You know, you're now that you know, like when you when when you're in pe if you get bought by pe like they have a hold
[00:37:44] period and they have certain time frames in which they would ideally like to
[00:37:47] You know
[00:37:48] 3x you and and sell you to the next person like so there's a lot of structural elements that kind of
[00:37:55] push against this
[00:37:57] But what I found for
[00:37:59] For me at a personal level I started as a person at a personal level was like if I set 10 year goals
[00:38:06] Um, I can simultaneously think bigger and be more patient
[00:38:11] I don't have to race and I don't have to be in a position
[00:38:16] um
[00:38:18] Where i'm hurried on like I can I I can build a
[00:38:23] Successful company that makes plenty of money for myself pays my team well delights our clients
[00:38:31] And that that's a successful outcome
[00:38:33] And I can do that in a 10 year time period and what allows me to do is I don't have to
[00:38:40] It makes it easier to not make decisions based on fear
[00:38:44] um, it makes it easier to
[00:38:47] um
[00:38:48] Come from a place of like
[00:38:50] I don't like the word abundance. It feels a little woo-woo to me
[00:38:53] But like the idea of like the world's a big place and like there are lots of people
[00:38:57] You know when I think about like my total addressable market, right boutique boutique professional services firms is pretty
[00:39:03] It's probably massive
[00:39:04] But like that's a huge like there are more than enough people out there
[00:39:09] right
[00:39:10] um
[00:39:11] I don't have to be in a in a rush and I and it means that I don't have to try to
[00:39:17] Execute the seven cold emails in two weeks with the quick question subject line
[00:39:23] And the hey, you didn't reply to my first three emails for one of three reasons and it allows me to respect your
[00:39:31] Founders your time your intelligence. It allows me to
[00:39:35] build a company
[00:39:37] that's perception in the world, hopefully
[00:39:40] is
[00:39:43] Just completely driven by serving and adding value and respecting you and just trusting that like
[00:39:50] It doesn't it hopefully at least it doesn't wreak of like any sort of desperation
[00:39:55] Like I'm just showing up, you know each day trying to be helpful and like
[00:40:00] This allows me to do that, you know and so
[00:40:03] um
[00:40:03] And it's like when people, you know, I've had I've had calls with people where they're trying, you know
[00:40:07] They're like, hey, I had I have a goal
[00:40:10] To like have a certain pipeline in 90 days
[00:40:14] and I'm like
[00:40:16] I'm sorry
[00:40:16] I don't know. I don't know how to solve that problem for you. I what I do know how to do is
[00:40:23] Make sure that a year from now
[00:40:25] That problem is a lot better
[00:40:28] Because we got really clear on who we're trying to serve and how
[00:40:32] And we made a commitment to be disciplined about just showing up
[00:40:36] And adding value for people on a regular basis
[00:40:39] And I think that if you do that
[00:40:42] consistently
[00:40:43] And it's very clear who you are who you serve like
[00:40:47] Those people will raise their hand and your pipeline problem will be solved
[00:40:50] It won't be solved in 30 in 30 days or 90 days, but I do believe if you fast forward a year
[00:40:55] You'd be really surprised and so
[00:40:58] Is that about that? That is a very important question. I wanted to bring up. Is that something you often see as a
[00:41:03] As a friction point because you'll you'll either for you as a firm or when you're talking to prospects or clients
[00:41:09] There is always this sort of nagging battle between short-term metrics and results like getting stuff through the door
[00:41:15] Like it's cool. Do Sean, you know, let's I'd love to see that in a year
[00:41:19] But at the same time I want you to execute in the next
[00:41:21] 30 60 I show me something in the door now so that I can believe in your narrative
[00:41:25] you know, I um yes and I
[00:41:31] Again, I mean, I think it's helpful like the whole like 10 year thing is helpful for me in this regard is that like I can
[00:41:37] I can walk away from business like that like I
[00:41:41] I and I say it on the website the way that people buy professional services is different than anything else
[00:41:46] It is a trust based sale
[00:41:49] It is what they call a credence good. You are selling a completely intangible thing. You're selling an idea
[00:41:54] You're selling the idea that like this smart person will come into your firm
[00:41:59] Or your organization and will help you solve your thorneest problem
[00:42:04] that you've already tried to solve yourself and have been unable to do so and
[00:42:09] um
[00:42:10] That takes time like I think that requires it's much more relationship based than maybe people give credit
[00:42:16] than people assume
[00:42:19] and
[00:42:22] I just think it takes time to kind of acquire that kind of trust and and so the goal is to make you like the quote unquote trusted advisor
[00:42:27] Which isn't my phrase. It's from david meister. He's kind of the father of professional service firms, but it's like
[00:42:32] And what's the name?
[00:42:34] David meister he wrote the trust David meister. Yeah
[00:42:38] He's written a bunch of books about it, but that was the his most famous one, but
[00:42:42] Check it out
[00:42:44] But and that's one of his ideas is like taking a long term view too
[00:42:46] It's like I will prioritize the needs of my client over my own
[00:42:50] Is kind of one of the evidence of becoming a trusted advisor and people can smell it if you are trying to be transactional
[00:42:56] So like when I go in when I get on sales calls with people
[00:42:59] There's a sense in which i'm not even selling like i'm just trying to help you solve your problem
[00:43:04] And you know what I do. You already know what I do
[00:43:06] So like we're on a call and you see it also
[00:43:09] One of the beauties of what i'm doing and you can't do this for every type of firm, but like
[00:43:14] It's sort of inception in a way. It's like i'm showing you by doing
[00:43:18] So exactly all with me and they're like, well, how do I know this works? And I say
[00:43:22] Well, why are we talking right now?
[00:43:25] You
[00:43:26] You started following me on linkedin at some point
[00:43:29] You kept seeing my stupid little face with my stupid little headline
[00:43:32] Sometimes you click through and read more sometimes you don't it's which is fine
[00:43:35] But you keep seeing it and eventually like some of them you read you hopefully you find interesting
[00:43:40] You're like, oh, that's a good idea. And like I've made a little trust deposit in your brain
[00:43:44] Over time
[00:43:46] You come to think hopefully think of me as somebody who
[00:43:49] Has a little bit of wisdom and might be able to help you with your marketing problem
[00:43:53] And then at some point you're like, you know, I need to talk to Sean
[00:43:55] And so like that's how it works
[00:43:57] And it's the sorts like and then they're like, oh, yeah, I get it. It's like it is not direct response
[00:44:03] It is not I put one art of you know, linkedin post out of the universe and I expect to get this back
[00:44:08] it is
[00:44:09] It is fuzzy
[00:44:11] It is long term. It is much more like brand
[00:44:16] But
[00:44:17] And it requires your to your point on the it requires a leap of faith on the part of clients
[00:44:23] My favorite part too
[00:44:25] Speaking of that interaction at the end because I share the same playbook
[00:44:28] By the way, and I always have and sometimes I'd get weird looks like I actually sometimes I'll be proactive in saying listen
[00:44:33] This conversation is not even about x which is what I'm
[00:44:38] Serving let's say because it's not even important to you right now
[00:44:41] We both know that like it's too early for you to even pursue this path
[00:44:43] Then we'll get to the end of the call and I would have already made like two or three introductions on the call
[00:44:49] Sometimes I'll say listen. I have a busy week ahead. Let me bookmark them now. Let's use our time productively
[00:44:54] I'll make these introductions now
[00:44:55] Yeah, we'll get to the end of the call and be like that was amazing. What can I do for you?
[00:45:00] My favorite thing to say I just want to see you succeed
[00:45:03] Yeah, maybe you'll help down the line. If so, I'll give you a ring for now
[00:45:07] Just keep doing what you're doing and they're like, I don't really believe that you're like, what do you want from me?
[00:45:12] I'm like about that. I don't yeah
[00:45:14] Yeah, it is a different it is a different way of moving through the world
[00:45:19] And it is not
[00:45:21] A narrative that you get told a lot and it's the kind of thing that you have to sort of do
[00:45:27] And just see how it makes you feel
[00:45:30] And then you realize this is a better way of living like so for example, like I was on a call a couple weeks ago
[00:45:35] A firm that does like it's like a podcast
[00:45:38] production firm
[00:45:39] and they're really really struggling and
[00:45:43] Um, they're trying to kind of turn around
[00:45:44] To your point. They are not they don't have the budget to hire me
[00:45:49] They're not a client right now
[00:45:51] I think what maybe former me would have probably done and I think what a lot of people would do is be like, well that person can't
[00:45:59] They're not an ideal client right now. So they're kind of not worth my time
[00:46:03] um, what I chose to do was
[00:46:06] Give them as much advice as I could on the call
[00:46:08] Get off of the phone spend a couple hours on the weekend looking at their sites and looking at other things
[00:46:13] And then I wrote her a big long
[00:46:15] Right up of like this is what I would do
[00:46:18] If I were you and just I hope it's helpful and like take it take what's helpful
[00:46:23] Leave off what's not helpful
[00:46:26] but you know like
[00:46:28] just
[00:46:30] I'm rooting for you and I hope that this works out and keep me posted on how it goes, you know and uh
[00:46:37] And I didn't do it. I'm not expecting them to ever become a client. I just
[00:46:42] I want them to your point. I want them to be successful. I want them to be able to turn that ship around
[00:46:47] brand maybe at some point some other firm will talk to her
[00:46:52] And should be like, oh you should talk to Sean like that would be that would be success in my mind and that would be amazing
[00:46:57] I did want to just end quickly on on icp
[00:47:00] Uh, I know you also talk a lot about this. I was really curious just to get your thoughts for those listening
[00:47:06] I believe what what you refer to it as is ideal client
[00:47:10] Uh persona let's say uh or profile however you want to think of it
[00:47:14] Yeah
[00:47:16] Do you have a system as to how to actually
[00:47:20] Visualize or draw I've heard the reason I'm asking I've heard people in the past reference names
[00:47:26] Like they're my icp is like Dora and at the firm. This is who Dora looks like and looks like in with attributes meaning
[00:47:33] Yeah, you know
[00:47:35] Characteristics that helps the entire firm align on what it is we want to focus on but how do you actually draw that?
[00:47:42] Yeah, so I mean I do I have a template that I will use
[00:47:46] And it includes things like demographic stuff
[00:47:49] um
[00:47:50] I don't do the persona thing per se like I don't
[00:47:54] Better give them a name
[00:47:57] part of that is because
[00:47:59] A lot of professional services firms are selling into groups of people not individuals and so
[00:48:04] You know, it's more around
[00:48:07] What are the characteristics of the firm?
[00:48:09] And then would or who are some of the key decision makers kind of within that firm and like what are their hopes and fears and like
[00:48:15] pain points and goals and
[00:48:17] That kind of thing. Um, so that's like at the tactical level
[00:48:22] how I do it
[00:48:23] I think some of the things that like just at a high level
[00:48:28] I think a lot of professional service firms are unwilling to
[00:48:31] focus
[00:48:34] And
[00:48:35] They do themselves a disservice by doing that like and I saw this
[00:48:39] I even saw this like when I was doing like the innovation consulting thing. It was like
[00:48:44] I can't tell you how many conversations I was in
[00:48:47] where
[00:48:48] um
[00:48:49] They didn't know how to buy from me
[00:48:51] And it was because I wasn't willing to kind of put a stake in the ground and say like this is who I serve
[00:48:55] And this is specifically how I serve them
[00:48:56] It was most like I I think if I were to summarize how I used to position myself or like my previous firm
[00:49:03] Um, and this is all my fault
[00:49:04] But it was like we're a bunch of smart people that do stuff
[00:49:08] And they're like well what kind of stuff and we're like, well, what do you want?
[00:49:12] Which isn't a great way to sell a business or to sell services. So, um
[00:49:17] And I remember like once we pat I don't remember it was probably like around 10 million or so in revenue
[00:49:21] Like we started getting hit up by these investment bankers
[00:49:24] And their initial conversation was like, oh, you know, you're now in like the sweet spot for potential acquisition or whatever it was
[00:49:30] and that was never really our ambition anyway, but I
[00:49:32] I would take those calls because I just was curious about that world
[00:49:35] Um, but once they got in the phone with me like one of the most commonly repeated pieces of advice was like, you know
[00:49:42] You would grow a lot faster if you would like take a lane and like focus and it could be healthcare
[00:49:46] It could be a technology. It could be, you know, kind of whatever
[00:49:50] Um, and we were we slash I were just unwilling to do that. And so this time around I tried very deliberately
[00:49:56] I made a conscious decision like I'm I am a
[00:50:00] marketing firm for professional services firms and
[00:50:03] um
[00:50:05] And I get asked like do you help, you know, like because my previous world was with founders, you know, for example
[00:50:10] There's the idea of like the founder let's sale
[00:50:13] Um, you know, do you help founder? You know, do you help founders too? Like, blah, blah, blah
[00:50:17] And I'm trying as hard as I can to stay focused and to learn my previous lesson
[00:50:22] So I think that's like the main point is like pick a lane
[00:50:26] And I think the other sub point on that
[00:50:28] And this depends on the scope of what you're trying to do
[00:50:32] Most of my clients I would say are
[00:50:35] I think almost everybody is sub
[00:50:38] Actually, that might not be true, but I think everybody is sub 50 million. So
[00:50:42] um
[00:50:44] I don't know how much of my playbook is relevant for trying to build a billion dollar company
[00:50:48] But I know like many many firms would love to hit 10 million or 20 million or whatever
[00:50:53] And I know that it works for that and for that type of person in particular
[00:50:58] They're very scared of like picking the lane and like which which one should I do?
[00:51:03] And I kind of approach that a little bit differently. I say who do you like working with?
[00:51:08] Because I believe again, like getting back to that idea around sort of an abundance kind of mentality
[00:51:14] um
[00:51:16] The world is a big place and I think that you can almost pick any industry for the most part and
[00:51:22] It will be a big enough industry for you to
[00:51:25] You know
[00:51:27] operate with it have 10 or 20 clients a year like that's success for a lot of these people and
[00:51:34] So there's a sense of which is like
[00:51:36] What what what industries what kinds of people?
[00:51:39] What technology stacks do you really like like dev firms run into this a lot?
[00:51:43] And it's like where do we play and it's sort of like, you know
[00:51:45] Pick something like what kinds of work do you that you like doing wearable devices?
[00:51:50] Do you like doing iot stuff?
[00:51:51] Do you like, you know a lot of people trying to do the AI thing?
[00:51:54] So there's a lot of noise there, but like is there a certain platform that you really like I was talking to a firm
[00:52:01] That's that just does flutter development and like they're the flutter people and they're crushing it and like
[00:52:06] um, and there's a certain arbitrary like they they got a little bit lucky and it would turn out to be this rising tide, but um
[00:52:14] I just I like
[00:52:16] Start with what you want your life to look like start with what you want like your firm to look like
[00:52:21] And how do you want to show up each day or each week?
[00:52:24] Or whatever and make decisions based on that
[00:52:27] Like if there's a if there's a larger industry
[00:52:30] If you're looking if trying to sign between industry a and industry b or persona a and persona b
[00:52:35] Persona b is a lot bigger
[00:52:37] But they're assholes or whatever you just don't like working with them. It's it's boring
[00:52:42] It's it's it's mundane or whatever whatever the criteria is, but you like this one better
[00:52:46] I would say do this one because you're
[00:52:49] Just give it a try. Yeah, like it's you will you will be fine if you go
[00:52:54] If you go all in on it and I've seen I've seen it like I like compared to
[00:53:00] um, I used to get hit up all the time about
[00:53:02] Wanting to be invested in the fund, but it was it was my inbound deal flow
[00:53:07] When I was sort of generic enterprise innovation
[00:53:11] Was a fraction of what it's been
[00:53:13] Just in the eight months now
[00:53:15] Since I started doing this and I think it's literally just specificity. It is everybody. It's on my little it's my linkedin headline
[00:53:22] I grow professional services firms
[00:53:25] 80 percent, let's say of the content i'm writing is tailored to professional services firms and how to add value for them
[00:53:32] And it just makes it easy to understand
[00:53:35] um
[00:53:36] and
[00:53:37] When they're ready, they raise their hands versus just I serve everybody and I do all kinds of stuff
[00:53:42] Like it's just that's hard to buy
[00:53:44] So I think that's probably
[00:53:46] The bigger piece of it and then it's like tactically. Yes, like once I've made that decision
[00:53:51] Let's go down and let's create that ideal client profile and let's get really specific about what those things look like
[00:53:57] but um
[00:53:57] A lot of people I think skip that part of like it's really hard to write an ideal client profile when it's like
[00:54:05] enterprise companies it's like
[00:54:08] Which one?
[00:54:08] Okay, what size?
[00:54:10] Yeah, yeah, I don't know
[00:54:11] That's amazing dude. So pick your lane stay focused
[00:54:16] Uh think long term 10 year horizons if possible
[00:54:20] Um think of trust every day, but also understand that trust can be scaled and it compounds over time
[00:54:26] You know be consistent
[00:54:28] Uh and check out chan's profile. I will say dude
[00:54:31] I for some reason in this podcast
[00:54:33] I didn't have it like I usually have a journal with me or some notepad and I didn't
[00:54:37] And I just want to show you what's on my table before we we wrap up hold up
[00:54:46] Like 30 sticky notes. Thank you. Dude. This was uh, I mean I'm not surprised. I knew this is how I was gonna go
[00:54:52] Uh, can't thank you enough. Just keep doing what you're doing. I'm cheerleading you man